Freeconomy Blog
Mon
08 Mar
The Moneyless Man
| 85 comments |
Things at Freeconomy HQ - a 14ft caravan - have been hectic of late, hence the distinct lack of blogging. The book of my life without money, The Moneyless Man, has been taking up about twelve hours of almost every single day since the end of November, on top of everything else. It's been a fascinating process to go through, especially given the insane timescales we set ourselves.
For the last few weeks I've been working with the copyeditor to put the final touches to it (we've had 12 days to do what is normally a three month undertaking), and at 4am last Friday morning I finished it for a 9am deadline. Now it is off getting typeset, before being quickly returned to both myself and the proofreader to give it one last minutely-detailed look. After that it is indexed, all checked one last time, before it hits the printers on its way to the shelves.
Mixed amongst that schedule are advance copies to send out to publicists, reviews to organise, endorsements to get, interviews to set up and do, talks and debates to arrange, translation rights to tie down, press releases to send, distribution to bookstores around the world to plan, covers to design and promotion to build up. Given that the launch date is 1st June, just twelve weeks away, it's very tight. Thankfully I have great people helping me, and my publishers Oneworld have been nothing short of superb, with their expertise only matched by their relentless support and understanding.
Prior to writing this book, I had illusions of being a semi-decent writer. It turns out that I am, in fact, an Irish idiot with absolutely no grasp of the English language. It's been a huge learning curve for me, with both of my editors offering me excellent advice and guidance throughout.
Keeping your own integrity, personality and style whilst simultaneously trying to reach out to a hugely diverse and wide public is unbelievably challenging. I really want this book to, for the first time ever, give a complete picture of what Freeconomy and moneyless living is all about, how it can work - individually and collectively - and what the long-term vision for it is. I also want to do everything I can to give it the best representation, which means that careful consideration has got to go into every single word used, as one slip of the keyboard can mean that the whole movement is tarred by one of my many flaws or cock-ups.
Now that the book is written, our next job is to make people aware of it. As a start, Oneworld have kindly agreed to give all Freeconomy members a 30% discount on its sale price! (£10.99 in UK, other countries TBC).
On top of that, I will also be donating every penny that I am due to a Land Trust Fund for the first real Freeconomy community. This will be an ecological community and centre for 'education-through-living' (and courses and workshops) which any member of this online community will be welcome to come and stay for an agreed period of time, to experience moneyless living. Gratuit, naturellement.
Work begins on the proposal for this next week also, and I hope to have a lot more details regarding the community for you all in the next few months.
Therefore, every book sold is effectively a donation to setting up a home where anyone in this community will be able to spend time. The land will be guided through its infancy by a committee, with decisions being made by an evolved consensus process that respects people's needs to be both individual and collective.
For anyone who wants to point out the ironies of using money to set up a moneyless community, please respect that I've thought long and hard about all the issues involved and have taken the best decision (considering everything) that I felt I could, even if you disagree with it. As I pointed out in blogs where we discussed this previously, I see it as being no different than slaves, who were born into slavery, buying themselves out of a system so that their children can be free. We're all born into some sort of system, and you've often got to work with that system if you want to break yourself free from it in a way that is both sustainable and replicable.
When I first paid for for this website to be built, I did so on the exact same philosophy. A once-off payment. I am not saying this is right or wrong, just merely outlining my reasoning behind it.
I'll be announcing all the details of the book closer to the time, but if you would like to keep up to date with its launch, talks / debates lined up, special offers and discount codes for members, the cheapest and / or most ethical places to buy it, then please join this facebook page and invite any friends who you think may be interested in it to join too. I've also begun a number of discussion threads on here, where you can ask me any questions relating to the philosofree and the practicalities of moneyless living, along with links to organisations and articles on moneyless living.
If you're not on facebook, no problem at all. You can follow progress here on this blog, and I will do my best to keep everyone updated regarding both the book the the proposal for the community. If you could bear with me over the next few months, I'd really appreciate it, but as always I'll do my best to respond to all emails and comments.
Great to be sharing the planet with you all. Any help any of you can give by telling your friends about both the book and the moneyless community (so please share the facebook page with your contacts) would be hugely appreciated as I could do with all the help I can get right now.
THE FREECONOMY BLOG is written by Mark Boyle, founder of the Freeconomy Community, who has been living without money since Nov 2008.
Comment on this Post:
Kelly comments ...
That's fantastic Mark!!
Look forwards to reading it.
Yes the irony of money is not lost on me lol, but maybe money is not all bad, not the evil that binds the corrupt, maybe money is like a hammer...you can use it to build a house or you can use it to kill someone, its not the hammers fault.
Using the money to create something beautiful and worthwhile is very worthy.
Would leave a bitter taste in the mouth if after buying the book and reading about the moneyless philosophies, I found out you where living on a boat of the coast of Dubai ;)
Seamus Bradley comments ...
Fair play Mark,
I'm sure all the hard work will be worth it. Looking forward to reading it too.
Adh mór ort,
SB
Trish Young comments ...
Congrats Mark !
Cover (on facebook) looks great !
Fantastic !
hollie comments ...
congratulations on reaching your deadline, they are a nightmare especially when the turnaround for a project is only a few short weeks!
the facebook page is great i think social networking right now is one of the best ways to make the project known.
good luck and im looking forward to reading the book :-)
Matt B comments ...
You old sell out !
No only kidding. The write up soded all commercial and big time capitalist. BUT they you came over all green and groovy. Bless.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Kelly - I'd love a boat in Dubai! Unfortunately though I am totally committed to bringing this as far as it can go.
@ Everyone - thank you for the kind words, I hope it doesn't disappoint you!
Kelly comments ...
@Mark oh but I'm sure it will be a solar powerd boat yeah ? heehee ;)
hollie comments ...
@kelly - a solar powered boat ?
i think ill stick to wind power lol!
aww you've got me all thinking about sailing again!
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Kelly and Hollie - you got me thinking of sailing too - I had to sell my old yacht to set up this damn thing! She was wooden, a beauty...ahhhh...very fond memories...
hollie comments ...
@mark - its such a shame you had to sell it, i have so many memories too and would give anything to be able to get out on the water, it has been too long. but at least i get to live by the sea , it almost makes up for it.
@kelly - lol, yeah i grew up in the Midlands, east Birmingham area, my first experience of being 'on the water' was a barge and canoeing down a canal not far from the NIA, it really doesn't teach you much about the sea!
Trish Young comments ...
Funny I was thinking that the Freeconomy community might build a boat at some point - just sort of floated into my mind (haha)!
Ana comments ...
The Ann above was not me Mark.
A practical advice, I've noticed that you normally cook outdoors (what normally take longer to cook than if you could cook indoor, inside the caravan will keep you warm too and you'll save more energy. Now... I'm not sure if monoxide of carbon could be a problem?
BTW selling boats?, selling books?, buying land ? hard questions?.... shush, let's not rock the boat ; )
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Ana - I didn't think it was, you don't have the same name!
Thanks for advice, woodburners aren't great cookers unfortunately unless you got a fantastic one. Monoxide wouldn't be a problem though.
Those aren't difficult questions, I answered them in the blog. So no shush needed!
corneilius comments ...
Why is there no Free Open Source Creative Commons online PDF of your book?
Nancy @ http://sunnyislandbreezes.com/ comments ...
As a member of Freeconomy, I'm still working on simplifying my lifestyle. I will be happy to review "The Moneyless Man" on my blog. Alas, I don't have a facebook account, so can't help you that way. May you be blessed with much success as you work towards your goal of setting up a real Freeconomy community.
siddharth comments ...
hi Mark,
great to hear that! congratulations...
ironic though that the book will be charged for, and not freely available
online as a digital file or pdf!
somehow contradicts the whole ' *Everything is shared for FREE on
Freeconomy, and no money changes hands between members*' philosophy!!!
cheers,
s.
Trish Young comments ...
@siddarth
We've to use what is there to escape it.
I don't see how else it can be done.
So I think a tenner or so is little to pay as a contribution for land for the first of the Freeconomy communities. Which can benefit everybody.
Whooay !
Copies can be ordered from libraries or those who can and want to could buy an extra copy or two for their local community.
I really wouldn't be at all happy reading a whole book online, fancy having to take my computer everywhere I wanted to read, aaagh, and printing it out oneself would cost quite an amount in ink not to mention paper and environmental costs !
And... this has been ever so well explained in earlier blogs ...
:-)
Trish Young comments ...
@siddharth
Really sorry about misspelling your name (which is a great name) I am not the best at typing !!
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ cornelius and Siddharth - I understand your comments and share them a bit as well, but as I have said, I have thought long and hard about this and had a lot of factors to consider.
Once you go with a mainstream publisher you can't just offer it for free online - I would be breaking my contract and they'd understandably not be happy. The reason I went with a mainstream publisher is because they can get this message out to a massive number of people who - if I were to just do it online myself - would never be able to reach.
Yes it costs but I feel I have already explained that in the blog - all my proceeds are going to the Land trust fund, a once-off payment.
I engaged with the whole community back in Nov 2009 around this question and 95% of people said to go with this option.
In five years time when you want a break from the city and there is a place you can come and stay for free, you may at least see my logic. I am not expecting everyone to agree with it, I am just been transparent about the reasons and being honest that this decision - like all decisions we make - is my best guess. Thanks guys.
eyes23blue comments ...
Can't wait to read your book. Good Luck and all the best for the free future ;-)
Kelly comments ...
Reading some comments I need to butt in ..again ;)
I think the thing that should be remembered here is that Mark is showing how it CAN be done. A moneyless world won't happen over night, possibly it will never happen, but if everyone tried a little, mended some clothes, shared their veggies, Skills, advice, it shows that huge good can come from it.
We have become a world where everything has a value, where I can't offer to help a friend out with childcare because I'm not a "childminder".
Hopefully the book will help people to begin to look beyond money.
I was talking to my sister the other day about the PowerOffWeekend I am doing and asked her why she wouldn't do it.
She got really snippy and said that as she and her partner both had full time jobs they didn't have the time to cook from scratch and hand wash their clothes. But she hates her job, hates it so much its had made her ill. She feels trapped by it and to make herself feel better?? Of course, she spends money, buys clothes she doesn't need, spends every weekend out at clubs, takes a dozen mini breaks a year.
None of these things make her happy.
If she comes and stays with us you can see her breath. She cycles and we walk and talk and relax and then she goes home.
I live this way 24/7. Not moneyless but not a million miles away.
They say money makes money, but the omit the fact that it often also leeches it as well, until yo find yourself in a position of NEEDING to make £X to pay for the life you think you deserve.
So I for one will not be picking fault with Mark every time he mentions something that could be or was money related. I will say well done for showing all these people what CAN be done and showing them that parts of your life are easily obtained.
He could have decided to be a pure freeconomist and just lived his life, but then we wouldn`t have heard all about it then would we? We use the system to get the message across.
What is it they say?
Better to be in the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in?
One man living this way will make little difference, but a thousand people reading the book and making only a few changes could start a revolution.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
@Kelly,
I agree with you, but I prefer the word, transition to the word, revolution. I think we need to add what is missing to the world rather than tearing it down to start again the way that revolution is often perceived.
***
Mark is doing the best that he can, we need to do the best that we can. End of.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Trish Young comments ...
A friend just sent me through this link, it's called "Blessed Unrest and Wiser Earth", the speaker is Paul Hawken.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1fiubmOqH4
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
It's Z-Day today (Saturday 13 March).
Mark, are you going to the Bristol Z-Day event?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Bob Howes - yes I am doing a talk at 4.30pm, so may see you there if you are around!
The Question comments ...
"it out oneself would cost quite an amount in ink not to mention paper and environmental costs !"
Unlike the paper and environmental costs in publishing the book of course.
If you want donations for a community, ask for them. Though I doubt someone trying to live without money, asking for it, will get very far.
Furthermore why does this book have to be published in the first place. Isn't that what blogs are for?
The generalisations and prejudice on this site sicken me. The sanctimonious attitude toward people who don't immediately queue up to live in a forest are outrageous.
Money is a tool. Nothing more. People who use money aren't all greedy carbon spewing monsters. Money is a fine way to reflect the respect and love that someone offers in the physical world (which maybe all we have) to someone for a peice of work, or a product. If a musician performs a nice song in the street, what's wrong with dropping a few coins in the cap? It's society's way of showing their appreciation. It doesn't cancel out the creativity or the love for the work.
How does this book address the issue of wealth distribution and social justice? It's not even accurate: Mark didn't live for a year without money.
People can live in a caravan without a tv or a sports car if they please, that's their choice. But please don't try and sell it as something else. That's intellectual dishonesty.
The Question comments ...
"A moneyless world won't happen over night, possibly it will never happen, but if everyone tried a little, mended some clothes, shared their veggies, Skills, advice, it shows that huge good can come from it."
People have been doing that, in family and community, for centuries.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Herman - you'll be able to buy the book online from South Africa - I hope you enjoy it.
@ Nancy - thanks, much appreciated. Nice blog my the way.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Whatever The Question is, it appears to be very bitter and twisted, caring nothing for all those without this magic substance we call money, otherwise known as filthy lucre.
***
Money is like other tools, a weapon when used incorrectly. Sure money can be put to good uses, and I'm sure Mark could put it to one good use, that of liberating land from those who use it just to make more money rather than to make sure people are fed.
***
I doubt that Mark would get much in the way of donations, but prove me wrong. The Question could donate money.
***
The book is about spreading ideas. I probably won't agree entirely with Mark's ideas. He'll probably develop and change his ideas over time. But he's spreading his ideas as he sees them now. What's wrong with that?
***
Perhaps Mark and a few others will at some point stop using anything that was made with money. The land certainly wasn't, it was there before money, indeed before humans. There might come a time when a group can grow all its own food, make all it's own clothes and build its own houses and so on and cut itself off from the money system, though I wouldn't advocate it.
***
I'm not sure how far down that road Mark and others are planning to go. Maybe he and others will choose a responsible use of money route, we'll have to wait and see. I certainly intend to discuss it with him rather than condemning him when he could have just carried on in the commercial world like billions of others.
***
I think The Question should write a book that addresses all the things that Mark's book (in The Question's opinion) doesn't. Then The Question could maybe donate a percentage of the proceeds to a good cause.
***
My question to The Question is: Do you have a blog we can all read?
Cheers,
Bob
***
The Question comments ...
"Whatever The Question is, it appears to be very bitter and twisted, caring nothing for all those without this magic substance we call money, otherwise known as filthy lucre."
What a fantastically gross and offensive thing to say about someone. Is this how you intend to win people over to your ideas, by making the most degrading assumptions about them and spectacularly missing their point?
"Money is like other tools, a weapon when used incorrectly. Sure money can be put to good uses, and I'm sure Mark could put it to one good use, that of liberating land from those who use it just to make more money rather than to make sure people are fed."
The fact that he is donating money to help a good cause totally defeats his own argument against money. In fact why print the book at all; why not just create a blog that won't contribute to the deforestation of the planet? I presume this book will be on sale in shops and therefore contribute directly to the systems of commerce it purports to decry through the lifestyle espoused?
And what do you mean by 'liberating land'? There has to be some form of land management otherwise there would be total chaos. This all sounds rather sinister and militant to me.
"I doubt that Mark would get much in the way of donations, but prove me wrong. The Question could donate money."
Why would i donate money to someone who doesn't need it? If he's living without money why would he need donations?
"The book is about spreading ideas. I probably won't agree entirely with Mark's ideas. He'll probably develop and change his ideas over time. But he's spreading his ideas as he sees them now. What's wrong with that?"
I don't think i have ever said spreading ideas is wrong.
"Perhaps Mark and a few others will at some point stop using anything that was made with money. The land certainly wasn't, it was there before money, indeed before humans. There might come a time when a group can grow all its own food, make all it's own clothes and build its own houses and so on and cut itself off from the money system, though I wouldn't advocate it."
I am still waiting for an explanation of just how this society is supposed to function on anything other than a fraught stone age level of subsistence and law of the jungle sruvivalism.
As well as an explanation as to how this example iof living without money is indeed living without money as it is clearly and quite demonstrably not.
"I'm not sure how far down that road Mark and others are planning to go. Maybe he and others will choose a responsible use of money route, we'll have to wait and see. I certainly intend to discuss it with him rather than condemning him when he could have just carried on in the commercial world like billions of others."
You see the problem you have is that you are quite content to write off whole swathes of the population as mone grubbing capitalists and thus traduce money to something nasty. It isn't. There are issues of wealth distrubtion that Mark hasn't begun to address which would be much more productive, and there are people who use money selfishly. But they are the, albeit powerful, minority.
All you are doing is just being nasty.
"I think The Question should write a book that addresses all the things that Mark's book (in The Question's opinion) doesn't. "
Why should I have to write a book for any sensible discussion to take place? This is just being ridiculous. it's the same logic that says peopel who can't cook shoudln't say when their meal isn't cooked properly. Nonsense.
"Then The Question could maybe donate a percentage of the proceeds to a good cause."
Are you trying to say that I have never nor do I ever help good causes? Again, charming.
"My question to The Question is: Do you have a blog we can all read? "
No; should I?
The Question comments ...
"@ Herman - you'll be able to buy the book online from South Africa - I hope you enjoy it."
Though a world without money would render that sort of transcation impossible.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ The Question: Everything you say is 100% correct, you seem to have a complete grasp of everything I've ever written and I don't know how I could have been so foolish for so long! Thank you for setting me straight!
Of course I haven't been living without money, some of the fat and muscle tissue in my body was formed using food I had bought previous to Nov 2008. You're right, I am such a dimwit!
OK, so now I know how stupid I've been, I'd love to know what you want me to do. How can we tackle all the issues in the world today? What is your plan for me? If it makes sense as a whole (ie takes into account all aspects and how they interact with each other) I promise I'll do it, honestly. Maybe then we could call you 'The Answer' from then on.
Thank you so much for your constant wisdom and insights, and the positive way in which you respond, its deeply inspiring, and you've inspired me to take a good hard look at myself today.
Apart from the question above, I'd also love to know if a charming chap such as yourself would have dinner with me. I'd cook. Would I have to call you The Question still, or could we get on more personal terms?
Of course it wouldn't be free as I think somebody paid for compost that was put on the land where I grow food 15 years ago. But I'll do my best. I guess you are a guy (I don't know why I suspect that?), but if you are a woman I think I may be in love. My heart flutters everytime I get a comment from you...life is so beautiful when you're around!
I'm off now to look for a new job, cancel the book and do whatever it is you tell me I should so with my life. Thank you The Question whoever you are, thank you!!!
The Question comments ...
@Mark I have asked you several times to explain how you think you are living without money and every time you have ducked out. Now you respond with puerile sarcasm. Do you expect to engage all yoru critics this way? Is this how you handle people questioning your lifestyle? My name is irrelevant as I've told you before; you won't know me even if i mentioned it and it's my right to withold it. If you don't like that, well don't use the internet.
Your lifestyle is unsustainable on a larger scale and is only possible because of a confluence of already paid for circumstances and the fact that you are one persopn able to do so. You are not a community dependent on electricity, gas, health care (not as much) etc. Tell me, how does your freeconomic community plan to support the energy needs of its members, or provide for their healthcare? Where will the land come from if everyone in the country did this? Who would supervise the ensuing chaos and woudln't they end up being the nasty landowners of the future we'd have to later liberate land from?
How can you justify your belief that money is so bad a thing enough to eschew completely when you decide to use it to donate to a good cause? That's money being used positively, as it is across the world all the time. Removing money wont' remove people's human instincts and it's those that lead to negative social situations.
How does living in a borrowed caravan with a paid for energy supply (why not build your own?) on someone else's land foraging for food address this?
It's one thing to live that way; that's your choice. It's another to sell it as freedom.
Tim and Jo comments ...
Mark - we loved your response to The Troll (aka The Question), classic!
I was hoping you'd continue to ignore him/her (like most of the rest of us who ignore trolls) but glad you made an exception to the blogging rule!
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
@The Question,
Or might I call you Vic or Charlie? You see, if a person becomes a non-person by hiding behind a non-name, such as "The Question" then he (She?) surely cannot complain about being spoken to or of as a non-person. How does The Question know I am talking to or about him/her? I might be referring to a different Question.
***
Anyway, Charlie (or Vic), you have failed to convince me that you know what you are talking about. Money is not only what you say it is, it has its good side and its bad side.
***
The Question is: how do we deal with the bad side whilst retaining the good side? Mark is somewhat sidestepping the question by trying to opt out, but the money system has long tentacles that are hard to escape from.
***
Now, Vic (or Charlie), what was "the point" that I am missing? That Mark hasn't managed (yet) to escape the clutches of the money system? Until the human animal introduced ways of keeping other humans off the land they need to grow their food anyone could use the land. Now, in order to get the use of your equal share you have to buy it with money from the "owner".
***
Mark accepts that (reluctantly) as a sad fact of life, and so he is attempting to not so much kill two birds with one stone but breathe life into a dying system so saving us and the birds at the same time.
***
I realise that you think all is well in the money world, but you are wrong in my eyes. If you cannot see the disaster that is before you then it is your problem. If you have nothing to offer other than criticisms then carry on. Criticise away. You cannot stop anyone from thinking the way they do, unless, maybe you come up with something no-one has thought of.
***
It could be argued that when someone buys Mark's book they don't buy another, so that the ink and paper used is no different, but that the money raised gets used in a possibly better way than it would otherwise. I'm not certain of the truth of that, but it might be true. Certainly any money a person has can only be spent until it is gone.
***
And commerce has to go on until it is replaced, otherwise there will be disruption and more poverty. I want a moneyless world, but I don't want it to be built on an even bigger pile of bodies than we have already.
***
Liberating land means buying it so that it can be used to grow what the earth needs, food and habitat for all of nature's creatures, including humans. The farm fiels around here are full of miserable looking horses and hardly a blade of grass. In other parts of the world the soil has been badly damaged by various practices, mostly caused by the owners not being able or willing to care for the soil. Usually money related.
***
Of course land should be well managed. I expect Mark and co will do just that. You could donate money on the understanding that the land your money buys should be properly looked after.
***
You say you are in favour of spreading ideas, so what are your ideas?
"I am still waiting for an explanation of just how this society is supposed to function on anything other than a fraught stone age level of subsistence and law of the jungle sruvivalism. "
The explanation cannot be given in words alone. It will take many devoted and dedicated members many years to find their way in a long transition. That is my guess. First comes the desire (to rid the world of what ails it), then the decision to be a part of that process, then experiments and discussions and failure until a better understanding has been reached, then (hopefully) real progress. Is there a more straightforward way? If there is I want to know.
***
Charlie, I never write off anyone, not even you, we all have our parts to play. And I'm not being nasty, I'm simply trying to get my point across to you and anyone who supports your views that though Mark hasn't yet got to the end of his journey, he's maybe got to the end of the beginning of it.
***
Anyway, I have work to do outside before dark, so I'll leave the rest of your questions till another day.
Cheers,
Bob
***
humanbeing/laura comments ...
Hello i was at the Bristol talk yesterday n listend to your talk in depth and i have been wanting to live self sufficiently for a little bit of time now, however money seems to be stoping me and i no im not ready because i have nothing behind me but i am getting there mentaly as well. My dream is to live like this but in a different county as i find England (many words) but simply not for me. i would like to have an old redundant farm house and renivate it and grow a large varity of veg, fruit, plants and have animals ...ok im woffaling . i no it will take a few years but i am extreamly excited about it and so is my boyfriend and we want to thank you for doing wot you do and spreading this amazing culture xx
The Question comments ...
"You see, if a person becomes a non-person by hiding behind a non-name, such as "The Question" then he (She?) surely cannot complain about being spoken to or of as a non-person."
A person becomes a non name when others seek to dehumanise them. That's how the third reich operated. Do you think that's acceptable? Do you think that it's ok because i don't reveal my real name, a name that will mean nothing to you that could be no more real for all you know.
Instead why not address the points being raised.
"Anyway, Charlie (or Vic), you have failed to convince me that you know what you are talking about. Money is not only what you say it is, it has its good side and its bad side."
That's what i said. You have confused yourself.
"Mark accepts that (reluctantly) as a sad fact of life, and so he is attempting to not so much kill two birds with one stone but breathe life into a dying system so saving us and the birds at the same time."
How is the system dying? Saving us from what?
"I realise that you think all is well in the money world, but you are wrong in my eyes."
Where did I say that? please provide direct quotes.
"If you cannot see the disaster that is before you then it is your problem."
Apparently not.
What disaster exactly? You sound like a conspiracy theorist.
"If you have nothing to offer other than criticisms then carry on. "
So i was right: people can't express opinions except on your terms. So the person paying for a meal in a restuarant isn't entitled to point out the food's undercooked because he himself isn't a professional chef?
"It could be argued that when someone buys Mark's book they don't buy another, so that the ink and paper used is no different, but that the money raised gets used in a possibly better way than it would otherwise. "
Who are you to say to other people how they should spend their money? Who are you to decide good causes or otherwise. Your arrogance is extraordinary.
"And commerce has to go on until it is replaced, otherwise there will be disruption and more poverty. I want a moneyless world, but I don't want it to be built on an even bigger pile of bodies than we have already."
I have no idea what this kind of emotive nonsense is supposed to mean. What pile of bodies? The pile of bodies in Haiti that are being helped directly by donations made from people in Bristol who otherwise couldn't have helped?
"Liberating land means buying it so that it can be used to grow what the earth needs, food and habitat for all of nature's creatures, including humans. "
Buying it with what exactly, not money obviously.
"The farm fiels around here are full of miserable looking horses and hardly a blade of grass. "
I sincerely doubt that.
"In other parts of the world the soil has been badly damaged by various practices, mostly caused by the owners not being able or willing to care for the soil. Usually money related."
How are they money related?
"Of course land should be well managed. I expect Mark and co will do just that. You could donate money on the understanding that the land your money buys should be properly looked after."
But mark doesn't need money, he's living without it well enough to feel confident in courting the media and publicising his lifestyle through a printed book.
"You say you are in favour of spreading ideas, so what are your ideas?"
My ideas for what? I'm not arguing to replace money.
"The explanation cannot be given in words alone. "
In other words, you don't have one.
"It will take many devoted and dedicated members many years to find their way in a long transition. That is my guess. First comes the desire (to rid the world of what ails it), then the decision to be a part of that process, then experiments and discussions and failure until a better understanding has been reached, then (hopefully) real progress. Is there a more straightforward way? If there is I want to know.
"
I have no idea what you are talking about. What ails the world exactly?
"Charlie, I never write off anyone, not even you, we all have our parts to play. "
Is there perhaps a chance you could stop being a patronising twit?
"And I'm not being nasty, I'm simply trying to get my point across to you and anyone who supports your views "
what views would they be then?
hollie comments ...
maybe the question should try to see the world through our eyes, rather than his ( or her) own.
i see the most amazing world but we are destroying it through our greed and desire for more money. its in turn facilitating the abuse of our planet and all its inhabitants . it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
sometimes when you are trying to make a change, an epic change for the benefit of everyone you have to start form the beginning. making a moneyless society may not work,it could, but stepping aside from the current model can make you really appreciate all its inherent flaws and also its strengths.
Herman comments ...
@The Question
Why do you spend your valuable time blogging on this site, if your believes differ from ours?
@Mark
Thanx mark is think i will enjoy it. Though i would have liked a copy signed by you.
The Question comments ...
And again the constant assumption that you are either against us or with us. That everyone who isn't in agreement with the philosophies espoused here, which are a huge conflation of so many disparate concepts and issues, is greedy and materialistic.
Without money you will have no welfare state; no social support network. How will you train doctors and nurses?
Not a single answer to any issue or question has been provided. Instead a load of ignorant assumptions about huge swathes of the population. Is that fair?
And still noone can explain how a resource based society wouldn't have the same issues.
sbradley comments ...
Hi all, interesting reading all this. I do think that all arguments presented have helped highlight the issues involved in both a monied and a moneyless society. Of course, the fact that people take criticisms personally is trivial and a sign of our weaknesses as humans. Also, I do not see an issue with 'the question' not using a name unless people feel they can more accurately direct their anger towards them.
I actually agree with the question's point that there is a huge contradiction in buying land to set up a working community but i can also appreciate that unless some people decide to gift Mark with land, the sale of his book for money represents a realistic compromise.
I also feel that there is no point in any person trying to push their ideas onto others forcefully. The notion that a movement has inherent benefits, or that it represents positive changes over and above the current state of affairs, should surely be reason enough for it to spread.
Personally, i don't yet have a singular vision for how such a system might come about but respect Mark for his determination to see his through.
'without each other's help there ain't no hope for us; I'm living in a dream of fantasy'
Kelly comments ...
Oh Yay..the Question's back :I
Why do you presume we are all idiots and unable to make our own minds up? Are you so sure we need saving from Mark? That he is just waving a golden calf under our noses?
You have made your point on several of these posts. Nothing anyone say's seems to satisfy you.
Why are you still persisting?
Is there really nothing more important in your life right now that you have to keep coming here, rubbish other peoples ideas and opinions and then make snide comments when they don't agree with your frankly rambling and boring comments.
(a tip. Stop quoting the post before for every single point you make, its dull and people will skim your post and miss the point your making)
You think Marks being sarcastic?
Frankly Im amazed he hasn't told you to fk off. The man's capacity for tolerance is amazing.
All I see in your comments are bitter, whiny words.
They have no place here.
Say something constructive without being mean and petulant and holier than thou or find another group to troll.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Charlie,
I'm willing to chat with you using yahoo mail or some other platform. Are you also willing?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Kelly comments ...
Oh and before anyone makes a pithy comment about this proving its a "for or against us" thread I'm taking its not.
Debate is always welcome but you don't debate "The Question" what you do is repeat the same question again and again and pick holes in theories and leap on anyone that say's they once brought a can of coke or sweater in 1994 and take it as proof you can't have a moneyless existence.
Again..we're not stupid.
Even Mark admits that money is STILL a part of our lives (and that books can not be published without it) but you seem to only be here to trip up those that think the idea is an interesting one and a goal to aim for.
You obviously feel the goal is unobtainable which raises MY question again...Why are you here if you feel its not remotely workable?
Trish Young comments ...
Question to the Question :
Yes, why are you on here ?
Aggressing away, endlessly ...
Elsewhere might surely be a better place to go .. though I cannot say where elsewhere is, that's your choice.
I will say that I skip over your comments now as they are so repetitive ..... and full of aggression which gives nothing at all, and takes energy.
Alf comments ...
Something I noticed about Mark, the very first time I met him, was his obvious sincerity. All the words, questions and answers in the world fall short of this very special, rare gift (and choice a person makes to be in life). Something else which impresses me about Mark, and which significantly relates to sincerity, is the fact he doesn't profess to have all the answers. He continues to share what he finds to be true in life. "The Question" is entitled to ask questions, but Mark and others are entitled to decide whether to answer them, or not. The best answers, or 'defences', may be the silent reflection of a lifetime's work. I get the feeling that Mark is definitely in it for the long run, and that, as others have pointed out, there may be struggles and setbacks and opportunities and challenges, but my best guess is that there will be more growth and breakthroughs as well. I believe these will answer all the questions that need to be answered.
My own belief is that while money may, at best, be a "tool", it is, as Bob mentioned, still "filthy lucre". We wouldn't need money if people simply shared the world and its resources. I believe this gift of sharing in action is at the heart of the Freeconomy movement. It is a change in motivation that the world needs to see now more than ever. I believe a schism is occurring in the global body. There will be those individuals who rigorously oppose new movements, because they wish to cling to the old ways of doing things. And, there will be those individuals who are willing to let go and make the necessary sacrifices in order to do so.
There are some good things that are currently in place in the system, but it doesn't take a degree from Oxford to realise that we have raped and pillaged this world, and that our relationship to money has been the primary cause of this, which is why Mark has addressed the heart of the issue, and which is why there are such strong reactions to him (and others of us) doing so. We need to take the good, while not justifying that the good necessitates us clinging on to what is inherently rotten.
Mark may be condemned as being a hypocrite for allowing the Freeconomy community to accept donations for the book he's written, in order to establish the physical, land-based community. However, I believe Mark sincerely asked the Source what was right to do in this situation and I think he was open to any clear direction. This is where it needs to be said that people with questions can question away all they like, but if they don't have answers themselves then they need to put up, or shut up. I don't mean this antagonistically: I believe it is simply common sense. If someone asks for help and makes the best decision on the basis of the help he's given, then other bystanders don't have a right to condemn someone unless they wish to provide more help than the rest. Love is the answer and it has more wisdom than all the questions in the world.
Keep going, Mark. There may be a whole army of people who want to see you fail, because the answer is too convicting for them to handle. However, I believe that all the armies of the world won't stop the Truth being heard. Just stick with what you have been shown to be true, brother, through thick and thin.
(Sorry this post is a bit long. The words are from my heart and I have a tendency to ramble!)
Kelly comments ...
@Alf if the comment is intelligent, and full of sincerity its not rambling its taking the time to get your point across ;)
Trish Young comments ...
@Alf
Your comment comes across as very sincere and heartfelt - ditto what Kelly said.
Mari Elder comments ...
I believe everyone's opinion should be welcomed - why should only 'positive' comment (as perceived by those who agree with it) be welcomed?
Surely the points raised by those with questions and doubts are as valid as those who are there only to flatter and praise? I believe all comments could be considered and thought over - believe me, anyone who's waiting for the world to approve of everything they do will have a very long wait.
By the way, the suggestion that people should use their names is pretty childish in my opinion - for many people, using a descriptive moniker on the Internet is actually giving more info about themselves than their name.
Incidentally - who's to say that the name they use is their own name anyway?
Accept people have different opinions, accept they are free to air them if you have a blog or column that invites comment. I'd say, take time to mull over what people have to offer, for you may find nuggets of coal - or maybe even gold.
BTW - Mari Elder is not my real name.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Mari Elder - I agree with almost all of what you say, the whole point of comments is to also get the opinions of people who don't agree. And lots of people come on here and disagree, and good debate follows all in a really good spirit.
But every blog has what is known as its trolls, people who troll lots of these sites but don't add to the debate and go in with a completely closed mind and just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, even though you've responded to their question.
When you have limited time and energy (ie only 24hrs in a day), engaging is not the best use of that energy. They're an energy drain, and while I believe in inclusivity, its just not 100% to engage with every single person to that extent. And it is a blogging rule not to respond to trolls. If anyone comes on here with a questioning attitude with the intention of finding out more and adding to the debate, they're always welcome. Its those who come on aggeressively that seem to get a backlash. Personally, I just ignore it.
Of course people can use any name the want, it would just be a bit more personal if they used their real one. That's a part of what this community is about.
Thanks Mari Elder
comments ...
Really inspiring - I really am moved by your generosity in shifting your whole reality to cause something really powerful that will challenge the system that has been in place for thousands of years of human interaction. I will definitely be buying the book and therefore help to set up the moneyless community- as well as looking forward to a good read- whatever the literary skill! -
I hope that this community will bring people with like and unlike minds together to put aside their personal opinions and past financial habits and learn to share and nurture a space with love and kinhood.
The Question comments ...
I have simply asked for Mark to explain how he is living without money and how this society (and indeed world since it won't work otherwise) is supposed to function without money. I have not invited one jot of the abuse I have received from people who have resorted to ad hom attacks and sanctimonious attitudes. If this is how any kind of questioning or criticism of this supposed lifestyle is met then I wonder what on earth the point of publising any book thereon is. It seems rather counter productive to on one hand invite the attention of the public and the media and then when the public and the media ask questions to basically be put down by people so pious they cannot see past their own noses.
And I'm still waiting for an explanation or some kind of answer, or are we mere pathetic greedy mortals (ie anyone who doesn't immeditately reject money as the evil incarnate) just not deserving of such a privilege.
I guess it's far easier to demonise those who don't agree with you; all the better to dismiss their arguments.
@Robert: No thanks, I don't care to converse with someone as rude as you.
comments ...
If you are arguing that money is the root of evil then using the profits from a book you've written (thus depending on other people paying you for it with money) to do good totally shoots down your entire ethos. You can't have it both ways.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
For Charlie and any others who are totally wedded to the idea that the world can never rid itself of money, cannot function without money in any other than a primitive way, why don't you discuss it on other forums, like the WSM Yahoo group, the Zeitgeist Movement forum, likewise Venus Project, and Technocracynet site. It is good to question Mark, but there are more friendly ways of doing it. He invites criticism, but it doesn't have to get personal. It is ideas that we are discussing here and elsewhere not personalities. We are none of us perfect, but we casn try to improve and we can try to make our ideas consistant and scientific. Money is an emotional topic since we feel we cannot live our normal lives without sufficient of it, but we hate what it does to us and we want the ill effects to go away. I think that should be our goal, to create conditions where we can get the food we all need and everything else without the use of money, starting with growing our own food and going on to making our own equipment and finally making even the most complex things. This transition might take 100 years or even longer, but the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step, and some of us are taking that first, faltering step, hopefully in more or less the right direction. Has Charlie taken any steps at all, or is s/he firmly resisting budging?
Cheers,
Bob
***
Ana comments ...
I only know a community that abide by their ethos, one of their most important it's 'charity', the ones that use their facilities benefit from the charity of others, though it has been suggested before, they're not allowed to sell books. it's the Vippasana centre in Herefordshire for spiritual retreats, they're having a great success and quick expanding around the world, perhaps you could look there for some inspiration Mark.
Tomi Astikainen comments ...
Hey Mark,
I do understand your reasoning respecting the contract with OneWorld and not releasing a PDF online with CC license... unless you can convince them that it can actually increase the sales (just ask Cory Doctorow).
Well, if you cannot convince them, maybe someone somewhere might slip out a PDF version to rapidshare, pirate bay, megaupload or the like... If you wish to go viral it wouldn't hurt having the book in P2P circulation.
It's a fine line between respecting the rules of the old world and doing what needs to be done to go forwards. This issue is much larger than your - or anyone's - book.
Anyone who's interested in these thoughts, I recommend watching "Rip! - A remix manifesto":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwN6rRU0Xk
The Question comments ...
I do not understand how people believe that a resource based system is less fraught than a monetary based system. I don't understand how it is less susceptible to the influence of greedy people than a money system. No one has explained this - why?
For a resource based system to work you will need a double coincedence: you will need the buyer to want what you have as well as them wanting what you have. That is the problem money erases. How on earth can you solve this?
Where will the land come for people to live on if we decide to 'liberate' it? Where will the land for people to grow their own food and graze their own meat? What will happen if there's a bad harvest? Who will resolve disputes? How will that be subsidised?
It would be a start to answer at least one of these questions. If you want people to buy into this idea (which i presume is the sole reason for writing a book) then how do you expect to win people over if you don't talk to them and answer their questions? Yet so far all i have received is abuse, condescension and evasion. Are those, then, the attributyes of a resource based system?
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Inn answer to certain questions try reading this free book: http://peerconomy.org/text/peer-economy.pdf
After that, come back with any questions not covered.
cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
" you will need the buyer to want what you have as well as them wanting what you have."
***
Don't you mean, you will need the buyer to want what you have as well as you wanting what they have?
***
But in any case there is no buyer in a moneyless system, just collective production for collective consumption.
***
Also, in a transition from the present system to the preferred system, collectively produced goods can be given free to the producers and sold for cash to the public. This makes for a viable mixed economy.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Land doesn't come from anywhere, it stays where it is, only the users move. One owner/user leaves, another user takes up where the previous user leaves off. A group buying land is free to use it in perpetuity.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
In the case of a bad harvest, if nothing has been put by, we starve. But if we always aim to grow more than we need and we freeze, preserve, dry or otherwise keep a surplus then we can ride out a bad harvest or two.
Cheers,
Bob
***
The Question comments ...
And, again, how does a resource system mean that people won't be greedy and corrupt as they are with money.
Who will decide what land is used where and for what? Where will peopel get the land they will need for their own subsistence? How will public utilities and amenities be planned and constructed?
Why is all this even necessary? Why not just campaign for fairer distribution of wealth than impose unnecessary changes on other people?
Solan comments ...
If you can't get a job, or any self-employed work, and you have nothing to sell, and you can't get State benefits over £50 a week this is what you do:
Make sure you have prepared for the situation in advance by
1 insulating your house,
2 installing a Morso Badger secondary-burning convector stove which burns the gases that come off the wood as well as burning the wood itself, and it slow cooks and heats water on it's top, and runs off waste wood, other stoves are available
3 get three hot water bottles per person and two extra duvets each, and maybe curtains round the beds
4 get on a waiting list for an allotment (it can take years) and start learning to grow things in pots or bags at home
5 learn to sew, get a hand operated sewing machine to save electricity, and collect long lasting fabric such as tweed or calico to cut up as and when you need it as you go through life. Pick your favourite colour.
6 get solar powered gadgets such as a radio, torch, mobile phone charger etc ( in case of incoming calls) and a wind-up version of these as well.
7 learn how to wash up with half a bowl of water
8 learn how to make lye, grow soapwort, and pinch other ideas from the past, starting with John Seymour's tome on self sufficiency
9 make loads of friends, especially sympathetic ones who have no money themselves
10 join a local trading initiative and build up plenty of credits
11 sign up for freecycle, rich people love poor people who take away their unwanted stuff for free.
12 make some more friends
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
People only won't be greedy and corrupt if there is more than enough of everything to go around. It is shortages combined with a minority of those who are brought up badly that leads to that minority reverting to dog eat dog mentality. The money system as practised guarantees not enough money to go around by not creating enough jobs to go around. There are reasons for this but they are disputed by pro-money- anti change types. The usually understood simple reason is to keep a reserve army of poor people to keep wages and salaries down. But I prefer to think it is at least in part because so few of any strata give much thought to full, global employment. I have given it a lot of thought and can see that only by heading at full speed for a moneyless economy can we get full, global employment. I cannot see any other way. The extra product has to be different to the products on offer right now, it has to be a change of lifestyle for those who can afford it with the money spent going to those who can't afford sufficient change, so that they can. Decisions in the interim period between full money capitalism and no money collectivism will be by groups in a variety of ways from consensus to democracy to meritocracy to technocracy and so on, a mixture. As for public, that will diminish as collectives take responsibility for their members rather than government doing what has to be admitted, a piss poor job of it on the whole. Who is talking of imposing changes? I for one am offering changes. So far will little result. As for why change is necessary at all, for the simple reason that we are all doing badly, some extremely badly. Check the news. Campaigning for a better deal has been tried, is being tried, will continue being tried, with only marginal effect. A different approach is required.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Excerpt from an article by Toby Russell
In this thesis, money stands in the way of sustainability. As money is only needed in conditions of scarcity, it
follows that while there is money, there cannot be abundance, for an abundant supply means a price of zero.
Put simply, scarcity encourages hoarding for fear of absence and want, as protection against an uncertain
future. Money means, inherently, that being rich is better than being poor, such that staying rich becomes a
very logical thing to achieve. Staying rich becomes laws and other mechanisms designed to protect and
increase wealth, which lead to gross societal imbalances on all measures, and corrupt behaviours generally.
This ongoing struggle to gain and keep advantage over others in the fight for scarce resources cannot
engender a sustainable relationship with the environment. Now that humans have been so very successful in
terms of their numbers, production technology, and manipulation of demand in the interest of gaining and
securing wealth, we threaten our future by devouring our host.
The Question comments ...
@solan and how would you be able to do that without money?
jason palmer comments ...
great stuff mark, just found the guardian video today, amazing.... your right about using money to set yourself free, the only way, do not sweat about writing a book, remember to delegate, you can dictate it to a writer and get em to fix it, expand it.. delegation is the key !
The Question comments ...
But you cannot guarantee there will be enough resources. Look at the problems in Africa. Famine isn't caused by money, it's caused by crop failure and dry weather.
There is also more to society than just food. How will you provide energy for people? How will industry work? How will we fund scientific and technological research? How will we interact with the international community - I still haven't seen an answer to the question of how a resource system can help places like haiti? How will you trade when noone wants what you have to offer? Money came into existence because it offered a better system. The only problems are to do with its distribution. Arguing that the solution to that is to do away with it altogether is cutting your nose off to spite your face, and it is also not at all likley. Do you really believe that the entire world will abandon money? How are you going to convince people who are doing well and who aren't corrupt to part with their cash and live in the forest of plenty? You can't even explain how we would feed an island nation of 60 million people!
All i hear is the same mantra all the time 'money is the root of all evil'. It's not. It's merely a system of exchange. A resource based system is no more infinite than a money based system because the money is dependent on the resources themselves. It has no value alone. People on here decrying anyone who doesn't agree with them are no better than the greedy people whom they criticise. It's two ridiculous extremes. You would be much better off campaigning for better distribution of wealth, suich as the citizens wage, rather than demanding people close their bank accounts and go live in the forest eating nuts and berries.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
Charlie Question, I have answered many of your questions but get no recognition for having done so, you still pretend that your questions have not been answered. If you insist that any further questions be answered then you will have to acknowledge which have been answered adequately and which haven't. Either that or pay me for my time at the minimum wage.
Cheers,
Bob
***
PS. I am not Mark, I am not in favour of abandoning money right away. All in good time when we find in practice that the whole world becomes a better place without it, not before.
Solan comments ...
@the question
I used to be millionaire and then it all went. Luckily I was prepared.
It could happen to you. Don't assume it won't.
i hereby urge you to follow those steps one to twelve as a matter of urgncy, and add a few of your own.
Pride comes before a fall.
You have been warned.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
I used to want to be a millionaire. Who am I kidding, I still do.
Cheers,
Bob
***
The Question comments ...
@solan and again how do you do that without money?
@Robert you haven't answered them, youve provided vague responses that don't address the reality of the lifestyle you propose. I asked you, for example, where land would come to produce the meat we'd need for food and you just waved the question away by assuming everyone would become vegetarian and live off nuts and berries. I'm also not interested in discussing things with someone who has an attitude as shitty as yours. You think it's a joke to be so disrespectful then decry others for appearing to do the same (they aren't). Show some resopect if you actually want to engage me further or find someone else to debate with.
Robert Howes (Swansea, Wales, UK) comments ...
OK TQ,
Let us start right at the beginning. I think I did answer your questions but I can't be bothered to read all my own stuff, so fresh answers to all your questions, but if you want answers from Mark you'll need to ask him, and he's busier than me so you might wait for some time. On the question of land, if I understand your question, land is mostly owned, very little is free. There are patches that can be cultivated or fenced without upsetting the authorities or owners or neighbours or anyone, but generally land has to be bought or leased. This happens already. Also it can be share cropped. I'm sure you know all this already. Without money share cropping might be the best option. Google it if you need.
***
With upfront money to buy the land if it's for sale, or with some sales of produce to cover rent that might be the way to go. In a moneyless future there will be no need for rent or capital expenditure as land will be free for everyone to use. But right now we need to buy it or lease it or risk having it taken back after we put work in because the owner wants it back.
***
As for producing meat, it is still the same question of land access, with or without money, but meat production uses more land. A vegan diet, including the fruits and nuts of the forest, is the most efficient in land use terms. A low meat diet can be satisfied with the animals of the forest, whether grey squirrel, deer, hog, rabbit or whatever, no need for fields full of grass and methane belching cows. A high meat diet for some can also be satisfied with meat from forest animals. But a high meat diet for all is unsustainable in the longer term because as we run out of fossil fuels we'll need more renewables as well as the requirement now and for the next few decades of clearing excess carbon from the atmosphere even if only as a precautionary measure, just in case of a disastrous tipping point being reached that would make life as we know it impossible.
***
Next question please.
Cheers,
Bob
***
PS. Whereabouts in the world are you?
Mycaela comments ...
Really want to get a copy- so inspiring- so true about money becoming our gods. Husband is a hard worker but its all for money to make things better- I just want a simple life at times where family is sen together more.
Katy Byrne comments ...
We, at KSVY Public Radio are interested in
an interview with you. Can you send us a
copy of Moneyless Man?
Katy Byrne, Producer
conversationswithkaty.com
18490 Riverside dr
Sonoma, Ca
95476
Charlie comments ...
awesome - the world bank's economic advisor jeff anhang who wrote this report what is very important told me about you:
So happy I found you. hope all is well. i dont accept money for my work but people are always giving it to me but we have www.Community-Exchange.org system we are developing as an alternative. A mutual credit one but you dont use any form of currency tho do you. i just like to think it is a system for using numbers so I can see how well my forest gardens are doing, who is turning up and what is popular, how much seed we have ect. a recording system cos the money is in infinite supply
where are you living man? - much respect and love to you
charlie
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