Freeconomy Blog
Fri
26 Feb
Freeconomy, feminism and farming
| 72 comments |
Freeconomy is not just about money, or the absence of it. It is a design for life. Very similar to permaculture, but without the cash. I often get feedback from people telling me my blogs are not freeconomy related, that they're too philosophical, and that I should focus on monetary matters alone.
But freeconomy encompasses everything. It is a holistic approach to society, looking at all the issues involved and exploring what type of system would enable us to live happy, creative and genuinely fulfilling lives without it meaning that every other species on the planet suffers in the process. It's about finding a convergence of the needs of humans, animals and the myriad ecosystems that we all live as part of. To look at, and try to solve, issues in isolation is futile, as every action has a complex set of consequences.
And if you think that philosophy isn't your cup of tea (foraged, I hope), think again. Everything you do is influenced by it, even it you are not consciously aware of it. The way you think today has been significantly influenced by Locke, Marx, Plato, Darwin, Bacon and Descartes, even if you never heard of some of them.
Until we explore philosophy, and evolve it, the bigger issues in society will persist. It is the starting point for social change. Mahatma Gandhi once said "Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny". To summarise, your thoughts become your destiny, though you could argue that feeling and intuition come first.
So if you are sitting on your rear end, sipping a glass of 2005 Bordeaux whilst verbalising your thoughts to a friend, you're not lazy, you're at the beginning of a journey towards your destiny. An activist in the making. No, not necessarily the type who locks themselves on to the gates of Faslane, but someone who does exactly as they believe.
This week, I would love to know your thoughts on Feminism and how it relates to the dairy industry, if it does at all. I have a number of female friends who campaign for equality between the sexes, and they have my wholehearted support as it is still shockingly lacking, not just in terms of pay and rights, but in terms of the testosteronic culture we have created so far. But these friends are not vegan, and this I personally believe is an inconsistency in their belief system.
Cows are the most abused females on the planet. Please don't take offence to this, I am completely aware of the atrocities that effect human females. But examine the facts here. First we rape them (though I am not sure inserting an insemination rod into a cows uterus with your hand counts as a sexual act, but you get the gist). Then a day or two after they experience the wonder of birth, we take their baby away from them (often to a crate that he - and sometimes she - can't move in for two torturous weeks before becoming veal for the more distinguished of us), strap a machine onto their swollen udders, and milk every drop out of them, drops that were intended for their off-springs, not human adults. Once their milk production starts to decline from optimum, they're raped again. Kid snatched and eventually killed, machine-strapping activities, rape, child abduction, milked, raped, milked, raped. Dead.
I guess the question is this. Does the feminist agenda only deal with human animals, or does it extend to all females? I'm not sure, so I am putting it out there. Is it looking for equality between the human genders, or between all species. Can you be 'speciesist' (similar to a racist but in relation to species other than your own) and still be a feminist? Tough question.
I'm thirty years old, though unfortunately I look about thirty six. If I told you my mum was still breast-feeding me, what would you think of me? Weird? Don't worry, I'm not. But if I was, at least I'd be choosing the more natural species for me.
I also know many people who look at the countryside and its green fields and think it is fantastic. But does beauty only come from what something is visually, or can it run deeper than that? Can it come from what something represents? Wind turbines and electrical pylons are similar in many respects - size, materials and so on. But which of these is more beautiful, do you think?
Sometimes when I see green rolling valleys, like the one I live in, I see beauty. And I feel really lucky. Other times, I see a monocrop for dairy cows and a processing plant for meat. Many environmentalists I know want millions more trees in the world, but also a pint of milk a day, local of course (which, if everyone wanted, would mean UK adults would need about 20 million litres of milk produced every day). We can't have both. Its a choice. There just isn't the land.
I'm not making any judgements here, I simply want to ask the question and raise the issue and get people's views on this. "Don't judge me!", is how most people respond when a difficult subject is brought up. Strangely, no one has ever asked me not to judge them when I've said "I think you are wonderful"! So please, if you can, keep the defences down and discuss the issues, we're all adults after all.
But remember, philosophy is not solely the domain of the intellect. It's as much about the heart, the instinct. On the heath, Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And Gloucester, who is blind, answers "I see it feelingly".
I see it feelingly.
THE FREECONOMY BLOG is written by Mark Boyle, the founder of the Freeconomy Community who has spent the last 15 months living without Money.
Comment on this Post:
Trish Young comments ...
Now that is good, seeing feelingly, I can't think of a better way to express how to suss out what is really going on. The heart sees truly and gets to .... the heart of the matter .
Thanks Mark !
lovit comments ...
e-ghads...that's so well-written and so painful and so sick...boy, i would have hated to go through that diabolical experience that the lady cows do..im so glad no one stole my milk or my child from me when i was nursing/ we were young. that's really hard to reconsile....
Imogen comments ...
Well of course you can. Be a feminist and a non-vegan at the same time, that is. I mean, do you imagine that those revolutionary and brave women who began the movement practised veganism?? The main forerunners of the feminist movement were not only non-vegans, but in fact omnivores... But don't get me wrong - I understand the philosophical dilemma. The question is not "are feminism and non-veganism inconsistent?" - but essentially "where do we draw the line between moral principles for human beings and moral principles for other animals, and what is the justification for this?". The challenge to which a fundamentalist Christian might answer "human beings have a soul, a conscience, a purpose, whereas animals do not". You are starting with the catalyst of the feminist/vegan contention, but really the subject of discussion here is far, far broader. To your first question I would answer: yes, indeed, the mainstream feminist agenda, as it is generally understood, is only concerned with human animals. It is seeking equality between human males and females. The question is not "can you be a speciesist (or a racist) and a feminist?" (to which the answer is a resounding yes - the evidence lies in historical accounts - but rather "are speciesism and feminism contradictory?". It could be argued that one can not only be both things, but that feminism (as it is widely understood, as concerned solely with the human animal) is, in it's strongest form, an expression of speciesm in itself. My broad perception of feminism is of a moral stance narrowly focussed on human beings alone. I am not suggesting this is the 'right' understanding, however, taking it as a basis for discussion, it could be said that the way in which feminism (on this definition) disregards non-human animals is an indication of speciesism. I do not, however, hold this view. I am aware that many many feminists were, and are, animal lovers/vegetarians/vegans/environmentalists....
I comprehend your question, and it is an interesting one. Can we, in fact, in any way be moral, or principled, or considered, without also being vegan?? This is a question that I have yet to answer for myself, and so I can in this instance only exacerbate the debate, rather than offering any answer whatsoever.
Philosophy, asking questions, debating, catapulting concepts from here to there is fascinating, engaging and creative. More of it, please! And - I love your Lear reference. It just so happens to be the very first Shakespeare play I saw, at the tender age of seven, and the scene where Gloucester has his eyes out was my first traumatic experience. Yet somehow, just as the unbearably bleak 'Jude the Obscure' did, it only spurred me on to learn more of the creative mind behind the masterpiece.
DharmaWay comments ...
Mark
I greatly admire all of what you stand for. Well done, a thousand times.
As a bit older then you, I think I'll stick to being a Zeroaire. Can we become affiliated! Lol. Lots of good wishes.
John
http://wwwalternativeoptions.blogspot.com/
A ZEROAIRE NON- MANIFESTO
I call myself a Ziroaire. Of course it’s just a tag. And not to something I aim to become moralistic about. I just thought it would be nice, to ‘come out of the closet!’ And admit that I am content, and happy. That whilst I don’t desire wealth, neither do I advocate the abolishment of money. It isn’t as important how you live after all, but how attached you are to something. Frugalism, as a way of live, is rightly in vogue at this present time. I prefer the term Zeroaire though. It seems somehow more appropriate to these hard times. Oh well, I’ll leave the semantics of the situation well alone, I think!
So, would I describe a Zeroaire to someone seeking definitions! Well…
· I’m not on a crusade, a trip or any path. Nor am I trying to convert anyone
· A Zeroaire doesn’t give up anything. I don’t advocate living a live of poverty or chastity, dropping out, or trying to live in some sort of Arcadian idyll. But rather just accept what you have. If you have enough to live on then that is all you need.
· The Zeroaire's key phrase is non-attachment. Being neither desirous nor dismissive of materialism.
· A Zeroaire seeks to only inspire and help wherever he or she can.
· If there is a message, it has to be one which says, that you don’t need wealth to be happy and content. In fact, despite the mass appeal that wealth has on the population as a whole, I see nothing in the idea of being wealthy that is attractive. Having a lot of money means you have to safeguard your wealth, you need security systems, to protect your wealth. You become suspicious of other’s motives. Many wealthy people seek to accumulate even more wealth and possessions. Never satisfied with their lot.
· Zeroaire’s don’t live in a dream world, of continuous desire and envy. We don’t look upon wealth as a goal to achieve
· We celebrate the ‘here, ‘ and ‘now.’ Seeing the richness in each moment. We don’t take for granted what is freely around us. Nature, the air, friends and family. We don’t need to pay for what is most valuable to us.
· We don’t need to hide our ‘wealth of poverty.’ Many people feel ashamed to admit to being ‘poor.’ It’s time, to come out and show there is everything to gain from being a Zeroaire!
· Zeroaire’s are not slaves to stuff. We don’t droll over the fashion spreads or home makeovers in glossy magazines. We don’t need ‘retail therapy,’ if we feel a bit under the weather.
· People who have large amounts of wealth, the ‘rich set,’ should be helped, never celebrated. They have been sucked into the delusion of wealth. The same goes for all those who thrive on ‘shopping spending sprees.’ Isn’t it time, they were given guidance or counselling!
So, there you have it. The list could go on and on. Maybe I’ll get some T Shirts printed? Maybe not!
hollie comments ...
where do i start with this, youve brought up so many questions! ( and some of my favourite literature )
its hard to say exactly what is beauty, i see the most beautiful things be it someone saying thank you, a good piece of design or how the sun poured through my window this morning.
my home is beautiful, amazing, because i have so many memories here. any other house on my road is just a house.
they say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but its also in the heart and the mind. its a whole feeling encompassing more than just the visual aesthetic.
Kelly Basford (The (almost) Car-Less family) comments ...
I am vegan.
I am feminist.
I am humanist.
The connection is in the compassion and a desire for rights for all.
I was vegetarian for a long time and it took years (and a bad asthma attack) for the dairy penny to drop.
If you look at it enviroment wise, dairy farming is as bad if not worse than beef farming. The UK is starting to adopt the US system of "factory farming" milk. The local to me dairy farm puts pictures of sleek cows on green fields on the front of their cartons. The reality is emaciated girls, milked 3 times a day (another modern practice) who live in slurry covered concrete yards and are worn out by 3 or 4 years old.
In theory every person of compassion and with environmental ideals should be a vegan. But they are not.
Would the Xmas dinner at the RSPCA be vegan? I doubt it. Would a feminist think of the most abused "women" in the world as she ate ice cream? Unlikely.
People do not get the connection between what they eat and how they live. They are removed from the mess and fear and devastation of it by clean packaging and jolly labels.
Des Troy comments ...
For a long time I used to wonder what the use of philosophers was. It seemed like a game. Then I came to realize that philosophy was behind everything we do, every single bit of it. Someone had to think about the rights and wrongs of doing something in a particular way.
Today, I attempt to popularize philosophy as best I can in whatever way I can. Philosophy is the killer of 'learned helplessness'. Everything starts with philosophy. Get used to it.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Imogen - Thanks for this, well written. I agree, the brave women who initially pushed this agenda were probably not vegan and by their definition of Feminism they were certainly feminists. However, a long time has passed and I feel we should reassess what Feminism actually is. Just because somebody defined something a hundred years doesn't mean that we should follow it blindly for ever more.
We need to constantly question the labels we apply to ourselves. My vegan friends tell me that I'm not vegan because I used washed up cuttlefish bones on the shores to make toothpaste. Technically, they're right. But I think the definition is wrong. To me, Colgate toothpaste that contains no animal products, but loads of additives, is much less vegan, given the destructive nature of the factories and infrastructure and oil that is required to produce it.
@ Trish Young - glad you like the quote, good 'ol Gloucester!
@ lovit - I agree, it is difficult to reconcile, it is an inconsistency, I believe, in our belief systems at this point of our evolution.
@ John (DharmaWay) - I think that is fantastic, much admiration, and well written. I respect that so much.
@ hollie - I agree. In the eye of this beholder, you're beautiful.
@ Kelly Basford - my sentiments exactly. Well said.
@ Des Troy - I guessed you were a philosopher from some of your previous comments. Again, I couldn't agree more, it really is phase 1 and we all need to do much more of it privately. The key is for it not to stop there, but to lead to action in one's every movement. Thanks Des.
comments ...
You might be interested to read this The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J Adams - haven't read it myself yet but I caught sight of it in the library the other day and it pretty much sounds like an exploration of what you are curious about. She approaches butchery more than dairy etc. but it does look at the tie between patriarchal behaviour and the predominance of slaughter.
Imogen's already done a good job of starting to answer the links between feminism and veganism so I'll just leave answering your question by saying that your statement assumes equality between species and not everyone can agree with this so of course, you can be a feminist and not a vegan. I feel solidarity to animals being treated badly because we are both sentient creatures with the capacity to feel pain and suffer, not because we both have a vagina.
Following from this, I think I can be a vegan and not a mens right activist, even though plenty of male animals experience brutal treatment due to their sex i.e. castrated without anaesthetic, and suffer equally interminably through their living conditions etc. The qualities of gender and living condition are not essentially linked, they arise simultaneously. I'm not saying that animals don't suffer different treatment in this scenario due to their gender but I don't think that it explicitly necessitates the kind of link you are making.
"Does the feminist agenda only deal with human animals, or does it extend to all females?" - Again, there's no such thing as 'the feminist agenda', there are a huge variety of feminisms. A feminism concerned with the link between diet attitude and feminism would align with your argument, another wouldn't.
"Cows are the most abused females on the planet" - a contentious statement and one that is quantitive, not qualitative. I agree that factory meat production means the horrendous process you describe. But I would argue that there is probably a difference in the abuse suffered by female animals and non-animals. The pain I suffer from my sexual abuse does not lie in the material qualities of what happened. What causes me the most pain is knowing that I can never escape it, comprehending what could have been, how different I could be, what I could have achieved if I hadn't been held back. I'm not convinced a cow has this capacity to theorise the lost future she had. Definitely she can suffer pain in the present and likely she will remember what has happened but I doubt she can theorise about what could have been. Animals do not have the same mentality as humans. We can afford them the same rights and respect as humans but it is highly unlikely they have the capacity to think the same way we do. So to say plainly that cows are the most abused females on the planet is problematic. Quantitively, yes, qualitatively, probably not. Also, if we're looking at this quantitively, do you not think that trafficked women experience a similar level of torture?
And I would disagree, philosophy is much more the domain of the intellect although you may be spurred by emotions initially. If I feel extremely strongly about the plight of coffee tables, and I know and feel in my heart that it's cruel to put my mug on top of them without their consent, does that make it a philosophically sound premise? A facile example but if we are to philosophically solve the problems we see about us, they need to have decent foundations in order for others to admit them as sensible ideas.
karadhyan comments ...
in wiltshire where i live, i do not look at the endless miles of cultivation and see beauty. i see devastation. i see soil that is white and cracked. crops that are infact reared hydroponically, for there can be no goodness left in the soil. i see scars where thick hedges used to thrive.
i recently bought 3 goats from a commercial dairy.
i have thought long and hard about the question of dairy, and as a result was vegan for many years. soya is a crap alternative. because of where it comes from, the processing involved, and it is nutriently inferior to organic, unpasturised milk. i have 3 children. i tried very hard to keep myself and them vegan, but felt lower in energy and stamina. they were constantly hungry, and we often had that unsatisfied feeling at the end of a meal.
we moved to spain for 3 years, and became meat eaters virtualy over night. seeing pigs frolicking in huge meadows bursting with flowers and oak trees. they rarely castrate animals there, letting breeding naturaly occur in all the animals kept around our village. this is where we first bought a goat.
we picked Luce from a herd where she was due to naturaly wean her daughter. she very soon adopted us as her family. we spent alot of time walking her to graze on the hills. and she would come with us everywhere, and i mean everywhere: to take the children to school, to the shops, she d wait outside my yoga class, i took her up river to a weekend party where she roamed free eating figs. she always liked to keep us in sight and i d just call her at milking time.she d bleat if ever i left her behind, which i hated to do!
now back in england, i have bought a nanny goat with her twins. 1 boy 1 girl. the boys born in the commercial herd go to the dog kennals at a day old. i would not consider myself a feminist. there are atrocities commited on both sexes in both the human and animal kingdom, and on nature.
so! i have 3 for company for each other. they cannot live right outside my home, like in spain, so they need to be happier without my constant attention. i see them as an extension of my family. we are animal. we are nature, and so are they.
i walk them out in the woods, and feed them naturally. a milking goat can go on producing for years, just like a human. and beleive me, its easier to breast feed than produce a baby!
the milking animal traditionaly was a huge part of a family life. the young would suckle a full 6 months before being milked for the family. they would be constantly handled and trained to help in the field and with other chores.
there is always the question of the males with this system. hence my question to you...feminism? i think it is healthy for the males to be fully reared with their mothers, and then to be kept till maturity. the modern fashion of eating meat young and tender, i feel, is very short sighted. economically you get much more raising them to ful size. in nature you get bachelor packs. groups of males that don t get to mate. the strongest wins a challenge for the herd, and thus the constant evolution of a stronger race.
this is nature! i beleive in our personal way, we should strive to take responsability for our needs. i have come to terms with eating meet, in a responsible way. i question any vegan who ownes a car?
how can we prioritise these crimes?
thanks for your time! (if you got to the end of this, i haven t felt moved to write so much in ages)
hollie comments ...
@ karadhyan your right we should be working with nature not against it, after all we are all part of this world and only a small part in a much bigger picture.
this biggest hurdle for most of us is accepting responsibility for our own needs. its hard to comprehend just how disconnected from everything we have become.
everything comes in nice shiny little packages so we have now lost focus of where or how its produced with little thought of the quality of life of workers, of animal suffering or of the destruction of natural habitats
nobody wants to accept blame. the manufacturers blame the consumer, the consumer blames the retailers... it goes on and still very little changes.
Sandie comments ...
Another title might have read:
'MONEY, MAN and MALNUTRITION'
Can we call ourselves members of the huMAN race when our daily actions contribute to the desperate hunger of over one billion of the World's population?
There has never been a more pressing time, to challenge ourselves, our thoughts and our daily actions; to spend time reasoning philosophically.
What ramifications will my actions, of today, have elsewhere on our Planet?
'Live simply, so that others may simply live' - Mahatma Gandhi
Mark Boyle comments ...
I just read this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/28/factory-farm-plans-under-fire
And it is the kind of thing that first makes me want to cry and then makes me really, really, angry, and it takes a lot.
Does humanity's lack of compassion for animals (outside of 'pets' and cute ones) know no boundaries? How, how, how can we justify this, except economically?
hollie comments ...
i read the article earlier its sickening to think we as a country are allowing this, its nothing more than a concentration camp for animals.
Kelly comments ...
@ karadhyan I'm sorry you felt you had no energy on your vegan diet, but maybe you where eating the wrong things??
I have 3 sporty sons and we are a vegan family. Friends I have cooked for have never complained about not feeling full and living the way I do, without car or washing machine, I couldn't do it on low reserves!!
Its just as easy to not get the right amount of energy/vitamins etc from a "regular" diet as it is from a vegan diet.
When we took the decision to go vegan as a family I spent a long time searching food as we slowly weaned ourselves off dairy.
I think this is also another problem. Many people go vegan over night and don't give their body time to adjust. Being faced the next morning with no idea what to eat and then spending all day picking at fruit and veg or having to eat crisps because the shop has nothing else you can eat is pretty soul destroying.
I hope you would be willing to to give it another bash and I would be happy to help out. I have vegan kid friendly (and omnivore friendly!) recipes on my blog and will send you the link if you like :)
@ comments ...anon(?) Cows are the most abused females on the planet, but not the most abused human females.
I feel your pain regarding your own sexual abuse, BUT you are human and you can rationalize, analyze and hopefully move on from your experience. The cow is as dedicated a mother as any human woman. To imagine a life where you are pregnant, then your newborn baby is taken from you and you are then attached to a machine that brutally milks you 3 times a day whether you have an infection or mastitis or not (and having had 3 children, used an expressing machine AND had mastitis this is no ouchie moment, more of a I'd-rather-go-through-birth-again moment!) Then you have to do it all over again until the life has been sucked from you.
Of course the trafficked girl also lives in hell...but she has the CHANCE to escape from hell, to get help, to live a life....and its that chance, that hope that separates us from the animals and means that they need our compassion.
Trish Young comments ...
@kelly
I'd really appreciate the link to your blog for some recipes !
Sandie comments ...
@ Trish,
Here's the link to Kelly's blog. I love it!
Hope you enjoy sharing news, views and information from The (almost) Car-Less Family:
http://thealmostcarlessfamily.blogspot.com/
NAGA comments ...
WE shall never be able to live without some kind of paradox and contradiction in our lives- its inherent in the nature of duality and that we are as humans divided beings.
Each of us owes our existence to the sufferings and deaths of countless others - life is "dukkha", it is unsatisfactory (in the factory?)
Each of us is both alike and unalike, souls are exactly as snow crystals. Beings compounded of causes, subject to change.
The cause of suffering is grasping.
Live and let live.... "-isms" are not the answer.
WE all have to die, and many of us will die mizrabul.
The purpose of life is to prepare for the only certainty, the final examination....just start examining your self , NOW.
My two words:
civil fretting (!)
NAGA comments ...
And Yes, Mark, I do agree, "milk is murder" and is the cause of many illnesses....because of the Dairy Industry and that we are conditioned to believe that we will go all floppy without our calcium. IN the process we give our kids glue ear and asthma and sinusitis, and also sensitize them to other allergens....
Its a wicked world alright, too true meight.
Cat rough alltogither!
number topknots !
Claire comments ...
Thanks for what you wrote. I thought about it during the weekend and asked the doctor if I could give up dairy and he said yes. So I'm giving up milk-based products now ! And otherwise I like your way of thinking, it's nice. Meilleurs voeux de bonheur !
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Claire - that is fantastic to hear, thank you for sharing that with me. Vous êtes une belle âme.
Lyssa M comments ...
Karadhyan- Thanks, I loved what you wrote (especially about your goat in spain… reminds me of Scotland when I was a child and the other children had this goat they took EVERYWHERE, lol.
We’re not Vegan or even Vegetarian, but I agree that over here we eat waaaaaay less meat and Dairy! Animals are raised in filth and torment and it is evident in the end result! Unfortunately most people are just so used to it they don’t realise that it could be any different! When we are in Albania it is much the same as in Spain, Animals roam free, which makes them tastier, makes their lives happier and I have had the benefit of saying hello to the cow that gives us milk! I mean stuff the British milkman, over there the milkman collects your bottles, fills them and gives them back to you!!
When we’ve watched programs on the meat industry my inlaws have been absolutely horrified! And spent most of the time saying “but WHY?” I don’t think the meat and dairy industry is “normal” as so many people from other countries have much the same reaction.
As for the questions in the first place. Well I think Feminism really is a Human thing… And I don’t think it has anything to do with Veganism. To close in and direct your attention on only Dairy cows would be to miss the whole big picture… Animals in the meat and Dairy industry are abused and kept in the most awful of conditions regardless of sex, I mean a lot of male animals are killed almost straight away as they are simply no use, male chickens are no use for eggs so they are killed as chicks, Same as male Calves are no use in Dairy. It is wasteful and horrid!
Also.. I really don't understand why they are made pregnant as for Humans we women don't actually need to have a baby to start producing milk!
HazardousPioneers.blogspot.com comments ...
Raw Milk!
Woohoo!
'The Vegetarian Myth' - Lierre Keith - might be of interest to some of you guys and girls here. Very interesting stuff.
Wish I couldn't comment more, but my New Zealand internet cafe is charging me by the second..
Until soon..
Hazardous Davis
comments ...
raw milk or unpasteurised milk, that idea has always got me thinking, has the introduction of pasteurised milk , as it kills off bacteria even those found in slurry so ive read, led ( along with numerous other reasons including greed) inevitably to the practice of factory farming/intensive farming and the complete disregard to the animals health and quality of life.
almost all milk-borne pathogens are killed of be it natural bacteria ( such as those found in colostrum ) or those from disease induced by lack of care , pasteurised milk is still, if you think about it, a saleable product.
its just a thought.
Brian comments ...
As a philosophy graduate, im probrably bias in my view of the usefulness of it. In fact i've wrestled with it endlessly. Six years since studying the course and i now see knowledge for its own sake as a dangerous thing. I sometimes wish I was ignorant. I feel like the character from the Matrix who wished he'd taken the blue pill.
As human beings we develop habits as a survival tool. They allow us to free our consious minds and focus on new endeavours. Habits dont just work in the physical realm. We form habits of thought just as readily.
It has been shocking to me to discover the many attrocities of humanity. The ways we have created abusive systems etc. The more I have learned, the more hypocrytical my life and the habits of thought and action that make up my life have seemed.
I have been vegatarian in the past and even vegan for a while because of the knowledge I learned about the ways we treat animals. All my family and friends are meat eaters and very much indoctrinated into the consumer lifestyle. My vegetarianism represented a threat to their beliefs as it might cause them to look at themselves.
As beliefs represent our sense of certainty about the world. Questioning those beliefs can shake their foundations and cause people to feel uncertain. In order to reestablish a sense of certainty, many of my friends would attack and ridicule me in order to preserve their own sense of identity.
The vegetarian/vegan issue is only one of a thousand issues surrounding our day to day ethical conduct. As I made gradual changes to my lifestyle my friends and family became more defensive of their habits. To them I became more and more intollerable.
An interesting paradox arose: Do I give up my new found beliefs and block my mind to the issues or do I start a new life, find new friends or even try to persuade them to follow my lead. To put it another way "do I give up the security of the reationships I have built since birth on account of my new knowledge (if my friends refuse to see it my way) or do I dumb myself down to protect their beliefs?"
Who is to say that eating meat is wrong? As an animal I have to consume matter in order to survive. Just because the cells that make up animals are more complex and evolved than plants, should that be a reason not to eat meat? After all if I was starving to death would I refuse a burger or a glass of milk? We have no way of knowing the kind of consciousness animals possess so why should we care about animals lower down on the food chain (apart from ensuring enough survive to continue the species for our own benefit). Some sources suggest that our own brain evolution took place in relation to our eating meat. We even possess teeth for eating meat. Chimpanzes (generally vegatarian) occasionally hunt for meat. (of course there are far more reasons beyond these for being vegan or vegetarian)
I've heard several arguments about the necessity of meat in the diet and for drinking milk. I think these arguments are poor. Conversley Ive also seen the arguments for being vegan or vegetarian which for me are far more compelling.
However, when considering all the factors, my upbringing , friends, family and the forces of society in general, I eventually decided to block my mind to what I believed to be right and instead plumb for security and ignorance. I now eat meat because I like the taste and everything else i ignore. Like Plato's allegory of the cave, I pefer to remain chained to the wall looking at the shadows and believing them to be reality. At least that way I can be loved. Socrates might well have proved to everyone in Athens that they were wrong about what they thought they knew. Yet he was condemned to death for disturbing peoples cherished beliefs. Jesus may well have been right about a better way to live yet he was crucified for challenging the status quo.
The choice then really boils down to this, do we stand up for what we believe (even though we dont know for sure if we are right). Do we live in accordance with what we believe even if that means isolation and ridicule from those we love, or do we remain ignorant?
Is knowledge a good thing if it means by having integrity to ourselves we challenge the beliefs of others? My experience of this dilema has led me to despise myself for living as an ignorant person, hating myself for following the crowd. Having knowledge and being educated is a dangerous thing if you pursue it for its own sake. Unless you live in accordance with what you believe to be right, you will suffer the agony of hypocracy. Its not other people who will punish you, you will end up punishing yourself.
Aristotle says in the first line of his Metaphysics, "By nature all men long to know." I agree with him but he should have warned us that if we do know something, we must be prepared to act accordingly no matter what the consequences.
For me its too late. The genie is out of the bottle. I cannot unlearn my knowledge. I may one day again decide to become vegan.
Lastly and I know this will cause controvesy. I choose to eat eggs from caged hens despite knowing the appalling conditions they live in. My reasons are purely ecconomic. Its cheaper to buy caged eggs than free range. Since I lost my business due to the ecconomic downturn I am living off benefit. I would love to think ethically about such ideas but I cannot afford to think that way.
Makes me wonder if the whole ecconomic crash isnt staged in order to keep people por enough so that they dont get ideas about ethical shopping.
Brian
hollie comments ...
@ brian - i too live in what the government classes as poverty and like you i have to choose between feeding my little one , regardless of where it comes from, or sticking to my beliefs. my role as a mother comes first. i have to provide for him.
im lucky enough to rent a house with enough land attached to grow a sufficient amount of food and live in an area where a foraging trip can be very productive. so i can afford to buy those free ranges eggs, what really gets to me though is i have the space to keep my own hens yet council rules mean i am not allowed.
id love to be able to go vegan ( simply because of the issues over animal treatment) and i have yet to succeed i make a better vegetarian than vegan.
there are also many other ethical concerns, do i use soya products and risk contributing to deforestation or do stay as i am, eat organic eggs and drink locally produced organic milk ?
there is no easy answer to it.
the hostility in its self is enough for anyone to set aside their beliefs. i suffer continuously from my siblings. i rarely buy my son new clothes, opting for charity shops, freecycle or hand me downs but im being put under pressure by my siblings who have children and spend an absolute fortune on new clothing week in week out. i refuse to be sucked in. my son is fine, happy and would rather get covered in mud so his clothes don't matter much!
i make his toys for him, i dont have a tumble dryer, i dont even have a television. i am constantly accused of living in the dark ages. you can imagine the comments and criticism when i said i was opting towards a more ethical lifestyle!
i honestly think this way of living is a big step forward. right now we are all making mistakes as we find our feet in this 'new world' of consumerism. we are all trying to get the balance right .
sometimes i too think that those in poverty are being kept in poverty as every year i find it harder and harder to just exist and im fed up of just existing!
Soundmigration comments ...
very interesting article Mark
Im kinda wondering if many of the people on the site have read up on much anarchist philosophy, like Kropotkin's "conquest of bread " etc. It seems to be that freeconomy is a response to the very distorting social relations created under capitalism and patriarchy, where profit and "power over" are central and people are used to serve the economy rather than the other way around. I hope to write some more on this over the next while, but initally wondering what people think. Its seems to be that to be for a society that doesnt run on money, but concepts of mutual aid, solidarity, particpatory democracy ( all cornerstones of anarchism) that such a vision, at some point, runs into contradiction with the "common sense" of capitalism.
Sandie Roach comments ...
@ hollie - I really know where you are coming from when you write about receiving criticism and hostility towards your chosen lifestyle.
We too experienced negativity from family and some friends as we made the transition from full-time (formal economy) working, consumers to a more self reliant and ethical lifestyle.
I think some people feel very threatened by change. Perhaps by making changes they feel we are challenging their chosen lifestyle and it makes them feel uncomfortable, with their reaction being hostility. I was once told, "To get in the real world."
Anyway Hollie, I just wanted to say 'keep-on-keeping-on' and try and surround yourself with like-minds as often as possible.
Ana comments ...
To be honest I think the vegan diet it's a middle class idea. To be a proper vegan is an expensive consumerist trend, time consuming and fussy diet. I know Mark you could live only from air if you put your mind to it, you haven't got the everyday society pressure, and I know what I'm talking about because I've lived in the countryside. For us low income families is an expensive luxury to live an organic/fair trade/welfare animals vegetarian/vegan, it's enough challenge and dietary worry to be just plain vegetarian, and we keep a very low profile as veggies (though I'm very proud to have rise all my family as plain vegetarians). Better if schools don't suspect and start question our children diet too, in fact my children are not allowed to have any nuts, nut sandwiches in the pack lunch, schools are not vegetarian/vegan friendly at all.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Ana - it is great to hear you are veggie and that you've brought your kids up so. And I totally understand the societal pressure. But having said that, I have always lived in the city too and I must admit to not really caring about the societal pressure. Do you think I don't get societal pressure now, living without money?!!! You've seen the level of criticism I take!
However, I do strongly disagree with this "To be a proper vegan is an expensive consumerist trend, time consuming and fussy diet." Consumerist trend? Fussy? Is it fussy to not want a cow or chicken to live a life of slavery? Do you see more and more people caring about animal welfare as a consumerist trend. If you say things like this you really need to back it up with some serious points, otherwise it is completely unfounded. I also think it is disrespectful to those who have given it up (even though they enjoyed it previously) because they don't want to cause any more animal suffering. Also, I know lots of people who work very part time on minimum wage so that they can volunteer loads, and many of those are vegan. So I don't get that point either. I lived on a 100% local, organic vegan diet for a year and I worked 3 days on minimum wage, the rest all voluntary. So it can be done.
@ Brian - are you the philosopher who made the Freeconomy booklet? If so, great to hear from you again. Thanks for the well thought out comment. A few points. Animals differ from plants in their sentience and the fact they feel pain, experience fear and stress in similar ways to humans. I also think you've been reading much to much Descartes. Some of your concepts after you wrote about plant cells etc are odd, and I don't think you even believe them.
Whilst you know I think you're a top man, I have to be honest and say I don't think there is any excuse for eating battery eggs. Well there is, obviously, because you just gave me one! But not one that is acceptable. If I said I raped women because I didn't have a girlfriend, would you say that was OK? Or would you say I could just choose to have sex?
Kelly comments ...
LOL @Ana "To be honest I think the vegan diet it's a middle class idea" ?????
I'm sorry I must have missed THAT memo!
I live in a 1 and 1/2 bed house with my husband and 3 children. We are WELL below the poverty line, now we are self employed we are even below the basic benefits income.
I can categorically state that there is Nothing middle class and faddy about our life.
You are confusing Vegans with the "chattering classes" who throw money at things to make them green. They drive the Prius and offset holidays by buying trees. I don't have holidays, I don't even have a car, I buy all our clothes from charity shops.
To be tared with this brush because I am Vegan is very distressing to me.
At the end of the day a 1lb of beans is a lot cheaper than a 1lb of meat so I have no idea where you got the idea from that being a Vegan is a middle class luxury!
I'm sorry but its statements like that that make my family look like faux hippies playing at being green.
Oh and I'm home schooling my kids after Primary school..I guess that ticks another middle class box!
Kelly comments ...
@Brian Battery eggs are no good for anything. Sure they are cheap BUT they are nutritionally as good as worthless, sat on a shelf for too long, check out the yoke colour and its the palest yellow you can get.
If you want to eat eggs, find a hobby chicken owner and buy eggs from them, seriously you can end up with free range, happy hen ORANGE yoked, layed that day, eggs for like £1 for 6.
Also you could eat less eggs but better quality.
Bakeing without eggs is really easy and a lot cheaper.
Kelly comments ...
@Brian, Oh, BTW we do not have meat eating teeth..even horses have canine teeth. We have flat plant chewing teeth.
The "Starving man" debate rages and is really a pathetic one.
Would I eat a burger is I was dying of hunger? Yes I would, if I found myself on a desert island would I hunt for food? If there was nothing else yes I would. I won't die for veganism but I won't regret taking the "red pill".
While I am in control of my life I will live as ethically as I can, there is no excuse. I'm sorry you thought your friends and family were all too narrow minded to accept your foray into veganism.
All of mine have been able to separate me from my veganism....much like the way I can talk to my sister without thinking about her addiction to Big Brother all the time.
While we developed as human beings we hunted for our food in the same way predators do. This was an acceptable chain of command.
Once we started corralling animals and breeding them for our own need we ceased to be predators and became farmers and THAT is where it is wrong to eat meat. You want to go into the wild and shoot a deer to eat that's your business and fair play too you. But the "sanitising" of meat and the distancing of people from the rearing and killing of said meat (out of site out of mind) makes man weak.
Ignoring suffering in anything, man or beast, makes a mockery of the "ethics" humans like to think they have.
Have fun Neo.
comments ...
there is nothing wrong with being a meat eater or with being vegan.
i do not care what anybody says each diet has its own ecological impact and ethical issues.
the problem is how each individual sources the food to fit their respective diets. its all well and good having a vegan diet BUT if you are using soya products there are concerns as to where they are produced, do you eat vegetables imported from around the world or do you grow your own all year round ? do you use seasonal/local produce? do you eat organic or by those sprayed with chemicals?
the same goes for a meat based diet. you have to consider how the animals are treated. Do you eat organic/free range? are they fed a local diet ie allowed to graze or are they fed a diet based on imported beans and grain? do you use all of the animal or do you regularly throw meat away? most people only use a small percentage when almost all the animal is usable. what type of meat do you eat? beef has a much higher environmental impact than a garden reared chicken not to mention the obvious treatment to the animals will be drastically different.
Kelly comments ...
@comments ...
You've hit the nail on the head there! I have every respect for people who raise their own animals and go through the whole process from birth to slaughter. The people I know who do this always seem to make full use of their meat and eat less, appreciating what they do eat.
The trouble I have is with people who say blithely "Oh we only eat ethical (!! lol) meat, organic, free range blah blah. When they clearly don't. Oh sure, they might buy ethical meat from the shops, but do they ask about the meat when they eat out? Or grab a pre-made sandwich? What about the mayonnaise in the sandwich?? Is THAT made with free range eggs? And the cake they had after? Where the eggs from a battery farm in Poland?? Its gloss and one upmanship.
Soya has a bad rap. I only buy soya from companies that don't rape rain forests. Noticed how all the supermarkets have their own soya milks now?? That is animal grade cheap soya where deforestation has happened.
No one is perfect.
I am not perfect.
Not even Mark is perfect! ;)
BUT..... When people attack me for being who I am when I have spent YEARS trying to be the non-scary easy going Vegan rather than the fire and brimstone type, I star to get a little ..Hmm..ticked off?
veganisim is only part of a wider ecological solution.
I grow much of our fruit and veg and buy local where possible (against the odds sadly :( ), no one can say they have a reason not to at least TRY to do that.
I am not here to tell people not to eat meat, no matter how much I would like any of you to go Vegan its not up to me what you do with your life.
All I can do is ask you to look at the alternatives, go for quality rather than quantity in all you do food wise. You don't have to be rich to eat less meat and dairy, just able to look beyond meat and two veg.
hollie comments ...
@Kelly - thats the point exactly. ( sorry forgot to add my name to my last post !) being green/ethical for some people is another way to keep up with the joneses!it looks good in their shopping basket. its another label to add to the long list already acquired. its as bad as buying new clothes every week and justifying it because they are eco/sustainable/fairtrade. whats wrong with the clothes you already have?
and your right nobody is perfect, we never will be especially if the idea of perfection these days is a size zero ....blah blah blah! whatever happened to scientists etc who actually made a decent contribution to society?
i do what i can and i know i make a lot of informed choices but i still make mistakes. i grow as much as i can buy organic and local if i need to, but sometimes you just cant find the produce you want or need.
i agree with looking beyond the meat and 2 veg there are other alternatives. one of my favourites is a bean chilli. home-made falafel tastes just as good as burgers ( well i think so!) have a dahl or a mushroom curry instead of the usual chicken version!
Suelo comments ...
I often say that if I used money I would be a vegan, unless I could hunt or fish for meat. I guess I am classified as "freegan." Yeah, I confess that, in my life without money, I eat meat, meat already destined for the landfill. It often feels like a holy act, redeeming animals who lived their lives imprisoned & killed, only to be thrown into the trash bin, not supporting the animal industry.
Being vegan is best if a person lives in a moneyed, agricultural society. The excuse that veganism is too expensive doesn't hole. People can afford it and enjoy it if they put their minds to it, if they really care.
However, in defense of eating meat, having examined every kind of culture I could, it is clear to me that hunting and gathering culture is the ONLY one that lives in total balance with the environment, lives with the most egalitarian relations among its own members, without classism and with equality in gender relationships (genders have different but equal roles). For a living example today, read about the Hadza, one of the few remaining H&G cultures today, in the Dec '09 National Geographic (google it!). An arctic Innuit has no choice but to live on a 100% meat diet, living way more in balance with nature than any vegan ever could within civilization! (But, please, don't let that make you give up veganism, if you are a part of money civilization!)
It was the beginning of agriculture that was the beginning of our downfall (as UCLA professor Jarred Diamond points out): hoarding, classism, sexism, overpopulation, displacement & extinction of other species. It kills & displaces more animals to eat tofu than it ever can eating wild venison. In fact, eating venison perpetuates balance. Eating meat is not immoral, unless we believe lions & wolves & bacterium are immoral--that nature itself is immoral. Vegetarian animals are not superior than predator animals. Vegetarian animals could not exist & evolve without predator animals.
I would rather see a person eat a wild fish than a vegetarian keeping a dog penned in a yard or a hamster in a cage. It's basic Golden Rule: I know I myself would rather run free and hunted down as dinner than to be penned in a gilded cage never to experience the bittersweet joy of wildness, including to hunt or be hunted.
However, sometimes I wonder if I should be vegan anyway, because my eating meat, though I don't feel the least guilt about it, can send a confusing message to those in money culture.
Robert Howes comments ...
As more people give up farmed meat and milk etc there will be more acres for trees.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Cheese comments ...
hmm, a tough question. Yes it is physically possible to be feminist and speciesist as our culture has allowed us to believe we are better than animals and therefore female animals aren't considered in feminist issues. Im not justifying this, but that is the simple fact of the matter.
And i couldn't agree more with thoughts becoming destiny, my life has change exponentially since having my eyes opened to the freeconomist way of thinking, and even though im not as far along the road as some who regularly visit here, it is certainly one of my long term goals to become more so.
Kelly comments ...
@Suelo I totally agree with you. A hunter gatherer life is the ideal so far as the balance of nature is concerned, but sadly we have, as a species out grown it. Imagine everyone taking to the hills to hunt. Carnage!! lol.
I have NO problem with a person eating meat destined for the landfill.
My veganisim is sometimes at odds with my ecological ideals but I try to chose the path of common sense. I needed a sofa and a friend was throwing out her 1 yr old (!!!!) leather sofa so I took it. I would rather use it than have it thrown away (and with 3 kids have we ever used it!). I never went on a rampage and threw out all the leather goods in my house I prefer to use them until they are past repair and THEN replace them with non-animal alternatives.
I even (and this is why an extremist vegan would shun me) have 6 rescue hens (ex bats). They lay eggs and we eat them ( the eggs that is! not the hens!), because they convert scrap food into real food.
This is like Mark and his cuttle fish.
At the end of the day the meaning of vegan is "One who does not exploit animals for food, goods or entertainment" and by collecting the eggs that are laid whether I want them or not I see no problem.
I would, however, never buy a commercial egg again.
But I digress.
If I lived in an urban setting (not in the middle of nowhere) I would love the freegan approach and yes, might even eat meat if I found it in the bin.
freeface comments ...
Dear Mark,
It has taken me some time to reply to your blog, dated 26th Feb, but it has got me thinking quite hard, so here’s my thoughts.
My first feeling, about your question “Does the Feminist agenda deal only with human animals or extend to all females?” was, oh great, women are getting blamed for that as well, and my second feeling was anger and guilt. Fortunately I can tell the difference between my feelings and reality (most of the time) and so decided to read your blog again and do some other reading and thinking of my own. To qualify that first feeling though, I do want to say human females are usually the scapegoat for any underlying problem, usually the mother is held up for the sacrificial lamb. Let’s not go there.
I want to give you my thoughts about the society we live in today. As far as I can see it’s a male dominated, sexually confused and repressive society, especially for women, but let me point out that male domination also includes men dominating other men, which in turn perpetuates the cycle. The economic situation, the lovely Capitalism, pushes us to make shortsighted and self-centred decisions. It capitalizes on the isolation and hopelessness we feel in this system. Sexism is one of the main pillars of our society, it is an oppression that is most often trivialised, criticized and made fun of. Male-dominated, capitalist societies rely heavily on deception, as is clear in the media, where oppression is called liberation; blatant violences (real or imagery) enacted against women and children are common, every day, normalized. Women are encouraged, no, more than that, expected to stay silent, to be passive, dependent. There is a sense of being less valuable than men. To be considered a woman one must keep to one’s inferior place, that of care-giver (which the male domination relies on but gives no priority to.) In the role of caregiver, caretaker, women seem somehow to be blamed for the destruction of the world, of Mother Nature, that Global Warming is the fault of the female.
With that image in mind, the great big Mother Earth, fruitfull and plentifull, let’s think about food production. This is a big business, dominated by monopoly companies (run mainly by white business men), who make huge profits from convenience foods- processed for our convenience at the expense of our health and that of the planet and it’s precious resources. Our appetites have been encouraged to become distorted and divorced from our body’s needs and natural cycles, and those who begin to think clearly on this subject and try to tell others are, as you yourself know, are themselves trivialised, vilified and criticized (just imagine if you were a female vegan activist trying to convince the world you don’t need money!!). Few people can listen, without criticism, about the ways they have been encouraged to fill emotional holes and short falls with foodstuffs, especially meat-eaters and sugar-cravers. No one really wants to believe they have been deceived by the economic system, which relies on their continued ignorance and hopelessnes to continue. But doesn’t the food we, recklessly, consume carry with it the misery of the animals or humans who produce them? Abolitionists avoided eating sugar because it was “tinctured with the sweat, the groans, and the tears, and the blood of the slave”; they exhorted others to “Feast not on the toil, pain and misery of the wretched.”
Feminism and Dairy industry? I can feel that you're coming at this question in a female-centred way, in fact the whole free economy vibe could be described as a female, I wonder what the percentage of guys and girls is in the community? In most communities seeking change, for example co-counselling, the majority are women. Since i know you're a guy though, another of my first feelings with this subject is you are somehow trivialising women, but that, I think, is my own hurt and actually I respect you shining the light on these questions, I am glad my self to be thinking hard about it right now.
(A side point, I stopped drinking milk when I was 2 years old, I remember looking at this tall glass of white liquid and thinking how nice it looked but knew there was no way i wanted to drink it. When I was 18 and struggling with low energy, doctors advised me to try drinking milk to help with weight loss. 10 years later and I have chronic illness and can't digest any diary products.) (although sometimes just the thought of cheese on toast makes me salivate...)
Is the negative energy from wretched food production not then passed on to us? Making this cycle never ending, continually eating it’s own tail- we feel bad so we eat some shit food, which makes us feel bad, so we go out and buy some more, and shove it in our mouths, down our gullets and through our digestive system to come out the other end as bad shit, polluting the water we drink and on and on and on and no wonder people feel helpless around this!!! I do. Because no matter what changes one makes personally, there’s a thousand other people doing exactly the opposite, with their eyes and ears closed and so where’s the fucking point? We are wounded and so continue to wound.
There’s a lecture I am listening, and re-listening to, by an Ecologist Psychologist, who is interested in conditions which bring out our wounded behaviour, and conditions which bring out holistic behaviour, imparticular what are the conditions which bring out love, love for each other and also love for the planet. A friend recorded it, ad hoc, with a digital recorder in a field somewhere in Essex. Something which strikes me is her idea that our need is to ‘over-do’ things, over-consume is driven by feelings of inadequacy (mostly unconscious), that our psychological reality is currently in conflict with our physical reality, and this being the moment we are in as a “civilisation”.
My answer then, to your question, yes I think the Feminist agenda does extend to all females, but importantly I also think it extends to every creature, male and female, every cycle, every resource. And I think we each of us has a responsibility in this area. Feminism is not just for women, women need to be be supported by men to confront the issues of male-domination, just as women need to support other women, and men need to support other men. I think we have a long way to go though, because of the way fear and the various oppressions have each creature divided, in distress, from the other.
My questions are; How can we be flexible in a rigid society? Do we surrender? Rebel? How can we win over our society to intelligent behaviour?
You may have gathered, I am a young woman, struggling my self with health issues and trying to make my life the way I want to live it, without using other people as my slaves. Does it make a difference to the reading of this email to know I am a woman? A big question for me at the moment is cheap protein in the form of beans and lentils, how can I get the nutrients I need without “feasting on the toil, pain and misery of the wretched”? I am open to answers! I recently moved from London to Bishopston, I have a chronic illness which means at the moment I find it hard to get around but you’d be welcome any time to visit, a cup of (foraged) tea always on the go.
My email is thejensteiner@googlemail.com
Blessed Bee xx
Ana comments ...
Mark you're asking me to back up my assertions, I think I said it before, you have to be realist and look at the facts; the number of vegans is very small (check the figures), veganism is very modern diet ( appeared 1940s in America), born from the capitalism excesses and only possible in our western culture (most vegans live in the rich countries), where they can be "survive" on vegan diet because of the variety of food choices, even vegans organizations recommend to supplement the diet with pills (consumerist mentality). Full grown adults can experiment as much as they please with veganism. But I am responsible for 3 children, and I take their health seriously, children need a lot of energy and keep as much with the demanding society as adults do. Vegetarianism is being the right diet for us (not without difficulties, even with vegetarianism we have some fatigue phases, as you have to watch the protein intaking or you'll run out of energy), with veganism I'm not doubt you have to be more careful still, in our case we consider food important to keep us going, but not to care that much as to be the centre of our life. My children are always being quite healthy (the body growth is something I've alway worried), but now I feel more reassure as my 15 years old has reach the right hight and all are coping well with school and life in general. For meat eaters I will recommend to go reducing it gradually, otherwise you are bound to fail.
People should be consistence with their ideas, vegan don't eat eggs whatever their kind Kelly. lol
Kelly comments ...
@Ana I choose to call myself Vegan as its easier than calling myself a "non-dairy vegetarian who eats eggs, but not your eggs only her own chickens eggs" So you can see how have to simplify it for a snipey few who can't see beyond fixed labels.
As I said before the CORRECT definition of a vegan is, according to the vegan socioty "[T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment" So You would pick up on the fact I eat my rescue hens eggs (Yes, the feather-less, un-fed for a week before being killed (unless re-homed) beaks cut...Oh and THESE where ex free range layers for you compassionate vegetarians). I took the hens on as a favour to a woman who rescues as many ex-layers as possible. Do you suggest I throw away the eggs that come to make myself a pious, pure Vegan? Dosen't that shound a little..well..pretulant?
Maybe I should just throw them away!
Very green.
I don't breed chickens. I don't buy eggs. I give them a shot at a decent life rather than being straved to death at 12 months old. Yes, that happens to the organic free range layers too. If the pet food market is low the hens are classes as FARM WASTE and the farmer SHOULD pay for them to be removed. Or he could leave them in a barn for a couple of weeks till they die.
Don't judge me with your own morals.
Lucky comments ...
Wow. Something I've understood but now really feel! Been on/off vegan for years although always choose organic if I do have diary. Now very much back on again!
Anoushka comments ...
I think that it is absolutely appropriate that you write on your philosophical musings, and thanks for this article and the information about cows..I hadn't thought about this properly before and your point is a good one. I will definately go from being veggie to vegan. I have toyed with this idea before, so your article has now made me serious about it. Thanks again, good work!
comments ...
No Kelly, sorry for your disappointment, you wish you were vegan but you don't, you could give the eggs to your neighbours/friends, (just judging you with your own morals).
I know plenty of decent meat-eaters with all kind of addictions that do an excellent charity/voluntary work.
I just find some vegan/veggies too preachy and trying to keep up with the green Joneses, that's all.
Ana comments ...
The above post is evidently mine.
IMO we should support animal welfare of any kind. Eating meat/fish is perfectly ethical and moral (you have to draw a natural line somewhere) and keep in balance with nature as it's well demonstrated with the hunters-gathers tribes around the world. The UK can not grow chickpeas, lentils (basic protein in veggie/vegan diet) and have to be imported. The high protein; imported soya beans, got its problems, it's not as reliable as we think. In the remote even all world will become vegan, domestic animals will stop existing, i.e most of them will be prey of other carnivores, domestic cows can not give birth on their own anymore, they need human assistant, etc. And who knows once the oil is over, we must need to introduce domestic animals for transport again and help in the fields, etc etc.
I am always in favour to let things evolve to their own accord without too much man intervention, time and time again our predictions has been wrong ...
We could find out how much animals products do we need for living and reduce it from our diet accordingly, but let have the option open for all; meat-eaters, veggies, vegans, fruitarians, etc
Kelly comments ...
No point trying to talk to pedants.
My life is not black and white. People like to pin labels and so I do my best but its always a square peg in a round hole scenario.
An interesting point. The term vegan was coined in 1944 when the vegetarian society decided to allow dairy and eggs under the term vegetarian, previously it hadn't, so "vegans" are not a new concept, only a re-branded one.
Back to feminism and dairy anyone??
cygnet comments ...
I have to say something before I unsubscribe! I know many friends and family who are farmers and that includes the dairy industry . Many do not use AI ( artificail insemination) . Most run their cows with a bull , just as in the wild . There is no 'rape' as you suggest.The cows and bull live together , out of doors , unless it is cold and there is no grass , then they live in warm barns , are well fed and looked after . There are very strict rules governing the production of food in this country . Welfare is taken very seriously . An animal welfare officer can visit a farm , unannounced , at any time , they do the same for all aspects of an animals life. On suckler cow farms ( beef) cows suckle their calves to maturity . often having two calves of different ages . This is as it would be in the wild . The dairy industry is realising that things have been done in the name of profits which were not good and are looking at ways to do better.There are agro' business' who are large and profit led ( although, as an aside, if you abuse your valuable stock your returns are not good so there is no point in treating your animals badly). There are a few bad farmers , cruel and lacking in thought , there are a few vegans like this , it is human after all . I can see all sides but I don't want to use emotive language to further any cause . If I am concerned I want to see for myself . Please look beyond the words ( rape is such a highly charged word), talk to farmers , visit all types , then peacefully make your mind up.
Kelly comments ...
@Ana
Actually you raise a valid point!!
The high protein beans and pulse just aren't available commercially in this country. That is why this year (when the snow recedes) I am experimenting with what I can grow domestically in regards to things like chickpeas and kidney beans. I grow a lot of my own UK veggies already so this will be a first for me. It will be interesting to see if its viable. You have to remember than most things are grown for maximum profit for minimum outlay, but people grow all kinds of "exotic" veg in their own gardens.
I personally think that UK farmers should concentrate on growing the staples (root crops, Grass crops etc) and that every one with a garden or window box should supplement to their own taste. That way you drastically cut down on importing.
cygnet comments ...
I'd also like to add , as I see so many incorrect assumptioms, that cows can give birth unaided and do . A farmer is too busy to aid each cow for heavens sake ! Most cows give birth easily , usually in a straw filled barn , with plenty of food and water . She and her calve are treasured. Most farms are family farms, each member of the family is concerned with the cow and calfs welfare . The farmer is there for a difficult birth and the vet is called if anything goes badly wrong . If either the calf or the cow dies then there is great saddness and not from the point of view of profit as I'm sure some of you cynics will think . We eat meat in this country , are you going to stop the people who want to eat meat from doing so ? Is this not a dictatorship ? The' facts' conjured up by many contributors are to be taken with a bit of salt , pure organic sea salt of course.
comments ...
@cygnet when I lived in Somerset I had a neighbour who was a dairy farmer. You are right in your experience, this farmer had beautiful happy cows who lived out at grass and came in to milk twice a day, he kept a bull and I never considered that dairy was cruel.
When I moved to Scotland I lived near another dairy farmer. This dairy farmer has skinny dull coated cows, they live there whole lives (apart from the few weeks before calving) in a bare concrete shed that is permantly covered in slurry.
They are milked 3 times a day.
They are also one of the biggest suppliers to supermarkets.
The touble is the tanker will go to your friends farm, THEN onto my neighbours farm and the milk is mixed.
Maybe rather like bying a t-shirt that has been made with ethical fair trade organic happy-worker cotton, and then printed in a sweat shop by 8 year olds.
I feel for the good farmer, but supermarkets are pushing them out in favour of the "more cost efective" farmer.
Ana comments ...
Yes plenty of pedantry in this blog, but let's back to feminism and farming; perhaps if farming were run by women will be more caring and compassionate!?
Cygnet, OK perhaps cows needn't help all the time, but small farmers don't want to risk the lost of mother and/or calf, so try to help as much they can. I attended some calf births in the past, once after agonizing hours the cow-mother couldn't push the calf out, sadly the calf were dead inside, but the mother survived because of human intervention.
Ana comments ...
Vegan, it might be a new name, but taking out all animal products from the diet was a new concept. Vegetarianism has survived in India for thousands of years (cows are sacred, so milk is sacred), but I read that usually were only the Brahmans who were veggies, lay people that were/are required to do the physical jobs were/are never vegetarians.
now I realise...sorry if my english sounds odd, as my second language I do my best. : )
Kelly comments ...
@Ana, We maybe got off on the wrong foot ;)
Personally I would not be able to eat/drink dairy as it exacerbates my asthma greatly and two of my children *HAD* eczema, now totally gone (over night in my youngest sons case). Interestingly if I lived in an Indian or rather Hindu country would I consume dairy?? I have no first hand experience of Hindu farming but I did read a magazine article about a Hindu farm in the UK where they operate a no kill farm with the bullocks working the land. That is an interesting concept and I would love to go and visit and see first hand the life of the cows.
re;feminism and farming. I'm sure that there are as many hard nosed women farmers as male BUT that is another interesting concept. Would a woman be more inclined to operate a farm along lines of compassion first and profit second?
Certainly when I read articles about forward thinking farms (on a smaller scale at least) they are often run by women, they seem to spend more time looking to the future, so are more likely to consider a plan of action involving the re-seeding of pasture with slow growing traditional grasses and providing natural shelter for livestock to live free range rather than be barn-ed, where as men generally look for the instant profit, the fertilizer that brings heavy yields for a couple of years even though it damages the land for future generations.
So yes, maybe a feminist farm would be a more compassionate one!
Kelly comments ...
Anyone interested in the Hindu dairy farm can see features here... http://walkingthefenceline.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/cows-and-the-earth-a-story-of-kinder-dairy-farming/
and here...
http://www.thelotustrust.org/ahimsa.html
Robert Howes (in Swansea UK) comments ...
I'll point out that many if not most of our diseases cross over from the animals we interact with, and though veganism isn't wholly natural it is in so many ways preferable. Cyanocobalamin (vit B12) comes from bacteria, a living organism, not quite a plant or an animal, and the fact that one form we can buy it in is tablets (not pills exactly), that is for convenience, not because we are addicted to medications. IE, it's a food not a medicine.
***
Also, a high protein diet is bad for our kidneys, but dried beans are quite cheap and easily available.
Cheers,
Bob
***
Also, I think the bit about the forming of the Vegan Society was wrong. Check your history.
Ana comments ...
Thanks Kelly, for your understanding.
Gandhi's own vision on human females;
'Our mother, when she dies, means expenses of burial or cremation. Mother cow is a useful dead as when she is alive. We can make use of every part of her body- her flesh, her bones, her intestines, her horns and her skin'
Robert Howes (Swansea, UK) comments ...
Please follow the link to the first publication of the Vegan Society
http://www.ukveggie.com/vegan_news/
Cheers,
Bob
***
PS, Yes, I am vegan (since 1970) and healthy at 62 (yesterday).
Sunsprite comments ...
I have been doing a liver cleanse so I have not been eating anything from an animal. I am on the last day of it and have found it to be less than I thought it would be. my brother did it first since he was really sick in the liver. He passed hundreds each time he has done it. He bought the book for me since I am in the lean times of work. I am losing about 100 stones, some old and some fewer new. I do a natural diet anyway and eat very little meat. I am gluten sensitive. Not sure you wanted to know about this, but I have to take it easy today so this is it.
Shirley
http://www.days-like-today.blogspot.com/ comments ...
amazing post!! i was reading an article on you in the YOU magazine and thought i would check your blog out, im loving it :)
comments ...
Dear Mark,
All large scale, monocultural production of food, be it plant or animal based is fundamentally unspiritual and outside Nature's wisdom. It flouts the principle of Sarvodaya--compassion for all life-and therefore does not eventually serve us as members of the collective. To isolate just milk as a food that fails the conscience muster distracts from the real issues. Is cultivation spiritual at all? And if we accept that our unnatural population size justify these innovations then I cannot decry milk anymore than honey, eggs, poultry, meats, grains etc etc etc. There is no question that industrial food production is evil in principle and delivers only ill health to its consumers. Milk obtained from a few cows/goats/sheep raised by individual families was found to be a wonderous health giving food by ancient cultures. Ancient scriptures extol the virtues of milk, cream, butter, yoghurt, cheese etc. Fermented dairy products provide natural immunity boosting and have been enjoyed for 1000's of years. Herd animals like cows and goats and readily domesticated birds like hens, ducks, geese etc formed symbiotic relationships with humans. The principle of diversity maintains auto self regulation in Nature and a diverse and varied omnivorous diet serves our health best.
Like a knife is neither good nor bad....its the consciousness of its user that makes it a healer or a killer, similarly milk from pasture raised and naturally reproducing bovine animals is alright in my opinion. Bovine animals unlike humans, naturally produce a lot more milk than needed by their calf. Not only milk but also far more colostrum than needed by the calf. Ancient societies like the Vedic civilisation in the Indian subcontinent valued what came from this symbiotic relationship between humans and beasts and worshiped the cow as Mother and a sacred manifestation of the divine. If sarvodaya be the corner stone of all relationships then all that yields from it will be healthful and good.
Ellen comments ...
Hi Mark! I found your site following a link from the Guardian. I wholeheartedly agree that the philosophical side is neccessary to understand the value systems we live in and want to change. I am an anti gem and diamond mining activist.
I have to be honest I never thought about dairy cows and feminism in that way, but I agree. We cannot sit back and allow any species to be raped and so violently controlled and not be affected as men and women. It simply is unacceptable.
Keep up the good work there and I look forward to your book. I am on a journey to simplify my life down to what fits in mycar or less and only make recycled art with recycled parts. I am giving up dairy as of this moment. Thank you.
My version of Ghandi's quote in Californian is "Word up and bi it homey."
Ellen
Paul Chaput comments ...
Unfortunately, Feminism has led to an escalation of the "gender wars." Overtime it has had a segregating impact even among feminists. Feminism is counter intuitive to the goal of most Indigenous peoples which is to live in harmony with Nature. It teaches humans the “good way” to live. The manner in which a culture treats Nature is the way in which it treats other humans. That is our primary relationship. Is a custodial relationship not an owner/ruler relationship; in fact the latter denote the opposite of relationship in the sense that free will is usurped.
Drawing battle lines between genders misses the point that both genders have unquestioningly accepted the operative orientation of capitalism. I believe most serious Feminist scholars have come to realize that the issue we have to collectively address is not that of gender inequality but that of the corporate driven (government supported) act of "accumulation by dispossession" (David Hardy). Gender issues are symptomatic of the underlying disease of acquisition and the lust for power. It is the manipulation of gender to maximize profits.
As you are so fond of Ghandi you will appreciate that narrative is at the core of any visionary activity. The quality of the thoughts from which the wine of narrative is distilled determines the quality of the actions to which it gives rise. By removing oil from your diet you discovered that cash also had to go; this is the path to high quality narrative and the antidote to the toxic, corporate narrative of “hoarding.”
You are on the right track. Experimenting with a cashless existence brings you face to face with the stories that underlie the neoliberal lies of “fat government officials with skinny welfare budgets.”
All the best,
Paul
You can always email me at paul@paulchaput.com
joaodupui comments ...
Hello mate,
Nice to be here. What I have to say about the new players is countries like Brazil, India and China (for many years blocked as emergents - now could represent a important and relevant menace, because, people will simply consume as never). It happens for all over the History, the emergents people are more consumists... this will be a serious problem.. and Please, could you try to export this message: The world, till now, has underrated the real brazilian face and it wont be a nice one". Cheers.
Celia (dove) comments ...
Oh my goodness, only joined today and trying to catch up with your blogs. Have been a vegetarian for years and now is the time to become a vegan, your blog is so powerful and made me cry. Did think finding your web page was by chance but now I know it was for a reason. Thank you. Take care, Celia (dove)
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