Freeconomy Blog
Fri
06 Nov
The story of the Eleventh Round
| 45 comments |
First of all I'd like to say a huge thank you for the overwhelming response to my request for help on the dilemma I am facing right now. About 90 per cent of you said YES to option 4, both through the comments and the emails you sent. I, however, am still not fully sure and am going to take another week to think about it as it is a big decision - I haven't had a spare minute in the last week to even sleep, let alone think.
One part of me still says 'trust' in Life to provide what I need. But then I remind myself of a story I heard a while back.
It goes like this: A small town was flooding and the water was rising by the minute. One man, a devout Christian, went to the church and climbed the tower to escape the rising water. He prayed to God to rescue him as the water approached. A few hours later, along came a boat and the captain said he would get him out. The man refused; he said God would save him. A few hours later, as the community began fearing for this poor man, a helicopter flies over, and again the man refuses; he said God would save him and so was going to wait and have trust in God (a.k.a Muhammad, Universe, Krishna, Nature). A few hours later still, as the water came up to his neck, the helicopter came back and pleaded with him to get in. The man, with full faith in his God, said he would trust God 100% and that he still had full faith he would save him.
The water rises and the man, alas, dies. The man, lets call him Mark, goes to heaven and knocks on the gate. God himself answers. Mark isn't overly happy - he says "I prayed to you for hours to save me and yet here I am, dead and in heaven. Why didn't you save me? God replies, "I sent you a boat and two f*****g helicopters, what else did you want me to do?"
Is this book my helicopter? Or a smokescreen? Who knows. That's a question I guess none of us can answer with certainty. Or can we?
Anyway, it might only sell 3 copies so it may all be irrelevant!
As you know I had intended to write my blog about the plans for the first real life (i.e. off-line) Freeconomy Community this week, but I have been absolutely inundated with emails and all sorts of requests (including 2000 new members in one week) that have meant I've been literally going around the clock for the last 10 days, and so I haven't had a chance to lay the plans out in an articulate way as of yet; so that is going to have to wait until next week's blog. If I had a pound for every email I received from people who are interested in it, I'd probably already have the land. Well, maybe 1% of an acre, but you get the idea.
So for the time being I am going to post this fantastic little anecdote about the banking industry, debt and maybe even homeless, competition and ultimately the depressed, crime-ridden and mentally ill society we find ourselves in here in the luxurious West. I got emailed this story from a freeconomist called Benjamin Lewis, who got in touch and joined after reading The Guardian blogs. Thanks Benjamin.
The Eleventh Round by M.A. Nystrom
Once upon a time, in a small village in the Outback, people used to barter for all their transactions. On every market day, people walked around with chickens, eggs, hams and breads, and engaged in prolonged negotiations among themselves to exchange what they needed. At key periods of the year, like harvests or whenever someone's barn needed repairs after a big storm, people recalled the tradition of helping each other out that they had brought from the old country. They knew that if they had a problem some day, others would aid them in return.
One market day, a stranger with shiny black shoes and an elegant white hat came by and observed the whole process with a sardonic smile. When he saw one farmer running around to corral the six chickens he wanted to exchange for a big ham, he could not refrain from laughing. "Poor people" he said. "So primitive." The farmer's wife overhead him and challenged the stranger, "Do you think you can do a better job handling chickens?" "Chickens, no," responded the stranger. "But there is a much better way to eliminate all that hassle." "Oh yes, how so?" asked the woman. "See that tree there?" the stranger replied. "Well, I will go wait there for one of you to bring me one large cowhide. Then have every family come visit me. I'll explain the better way."
And so it happened. He took the cowhide, and cut perfect leather rounds in it, and put an elaborate and graceful little stamp on each round. Then he gave to each family ten rounds, and explained that each represented the value of one chicken. "Now you can trade and bargain with the rounds instead of the unwieldy chickens," he explained. It made sense.
Everyone was impressed with the man with the shiny shoes and inspiring hat. "Oh, by the way," he added after every family had received their ten rounds, "in a year's time, I will come back and sit under the same tree. I want you each to bring me back 11 rounds. That 11th round is a token of appreciation for the technological improvement I just made possible in your lives." "But where will the 11th round come from?" asked the farmer with the six chickens. "You'll see," said the man with a reassuring smile.
Analysis
Assuming that the population and its annual production remain exactly the same during the next year, what do you think had to happen? Remember that the 11th round was never created. Therefore, bottom line, one of each 11 families will have to lose all its rounds, even if everyone managed his affairs well, in order to provide the 11th round to ten others.
So when a storm threatened the crop of one of the families, people became less generous with their time to help bring it in before disaster struck. While it was much more convenient to exchange the rounds instead of the chickens on market days, the new game also had the unintended side effect of actively discouraging the spontaneous cooperation that was traditional in the village. Instead, the new money game was generating a systemic undertow of competition among all the participants.
Commentary
This is how today's money system pits participants in the economy against each other. The story isolates the role of interest - the eleventh round - as part of the money creation process, and its impact on the participants. When the bank creates money by providing you with your $100,000 mortgage, it creates only the principal.
However, it expects you to bring back $200,000 over the next twenty years or so. If you don't, you'll lose your house. Your bank does not create the interest; it sends you out into the world to battle against everyone else to bring back the second $100,000. Since all the other banks do exactly the same thing, the system requires that some participants go bankrupt in order to provide you with this additional $100,000.
To put it simply, when you pay back interest on your loan, you are using someone else's principal. In other words, the device used to create the scarcity indispensable for a bank-debt system to function involves having people compete for money that has not been created, and penalizes them with bankruptcy whenever they do not succeed. . . No wonder 'it is a tough world out there.'
In reality, we do not live in a world of zero growth population, output or money supply (as in the story). In the real world, there is typically some growth over time in all these variables...This dynamic makes it much harder than in the Eleventh Round story to notice what is actually going on. With this dynamic view, the money system is like a treadmill that requires continuous economic growth, even if the real standard of living remains stagnant. This need for perpetual growth is another fact of life that we tend to take for granted in modern societies, and one that we usually do not associate with either interest or our money system.
Great little story, eh! I would love to know your thoughts on both of those two stories if you get a chance! Commenting below is more useful than emailing me at the moment as then everyone can share in each others insights and not just me. I'd love this blog to be a starting point of a debate every week, not just me airing my views! Great to be sharing the planet with you all!
THE FREECONOMY BLOG is written by Mark Boyle, founder of The Freeconomy Community. Mark is currently living without money for a year and hasn't got the faintest about anything at the moment.
Comment on this Post:
vic comments ...
mark, we cant go back, it's not the fault of the system but the relationship between beings - do you remember Fukuyama's idea of master and slave? like him or not he raised a point - the system was invented because some let it happen,what I fear is that it may happen again in some other forms - need to change the belief-system and understand once and for all where the real growth lies - regards
tarsila comments ...
hey mark!
the first story you posted made me giggle..i heard it before from my father (except in his version God didn't use any bad words)
...and so you proposed the question:
"Is this book my helicopter? Or a smokescreen? Who knows. That's a question I guess none of us can answer with certainty. Or can we?"
All i can really say to this..is put the question out there to God-Universe and LISTEN!( which i'm sure you already have!)
From my perspective, I think you should go full force with the book because it's a fantastic way to share amazingness with lots of people all over the world!!- don't let the money associated with the book keep you from sharing what maybe be an opportunity to help others have a different perspective of Life, as it is indeed more meaningful than money.(stay true to yourself and be aware of the media) Whatever money does results from the sales of the book, use wisely, let God-Universe guide you in it's use to further set an example of what living a Love-Life in Community with others is like. If buying land is the right action to take when the time comes...YOU WILL KNOW! YOU WILL FEEL IT! remember...as your second story clearly demonstrated...money is nothing more than a tool we've created. Our attachment to and improper use of it is what causes all the destructiveness...we have evolved to placing money and ourselves before others...
Ultimately, if you have been presented with the opportunity to generate money and use it to bring people together for the right reasons and choose not to...that would be like asking God to save you...and passing up the helicopter.
Then again this is only my perspective!
I hope with the wisdom and words of others and guidance from The Universe, you will find peace with your decision!
Meera comments ...
The first story is very true.....I fully agree with it. But the second story...I think people could have been greedy and selfish even when there was no currency-system. Only that a large part of selfishness is centered around the notes, coins and cheques and removing them from the society will make the credit of a person his/her money. In terms of money, we can make laws about paying for a service or sharing something. But when there is no money, how do you propose we ensure that a person is not cheated after doing a service to another? I mean, what if the other person does not help him back when the first one is needy? What if everyone in the society decides to take some kind of revenge against a person collectively and not help him at all? Every person is not carrying love and kindness in his/her heart; there are greedy, short-tempered, egocentric people who might not care about others. (And I believe there will always be such people because evils have to stay somewhere). We must think about such things before making a real Freeconomy Community ....or be ready to accept them.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ vic - I agree, going back is impossible. Is the night going back when it becomes the dawn? Is the winter going back when it becomes the spring? Will I be going back when I die?
@ Andrea B - haha, you could have at least left your email address :-P
@ Tarsila - thanks for your insights. I am sure god never swore in the orignal version, I think I gave it the Irish version!
@ Meera - I agree, there are a lot of challenges ahead, but I guess thats the point - we need to start facing them and evolving through them. One thing I would say though is that if you really do something just for the love of it, you can never feel cheated. Of course people copuld still be greedy and selfish without money, but it much less likely when it is not there. And the current banking industry is the dirver of much of the competition in the world. We very rarely coexist or cooperate anymore.
keyur comments ...
I agree with you Mark, we need to face the challenges in order to evolve. We need to step beyond that fear of failure and give it a try and from that experience we will evolve. maybe we'll not go back , but it will take us ahead with a new understanding. btw option 4 sounds gr8.
vancouverite comments ...
the current banking industry is the dirver of much of the competition in the world
Not sure about that one Mark. I think it's in our nature to compete (see Darwin) just as it's also in our nature to co-operate (see Dawkin's The Selfish Gene) to reach the same end.
The problem is that the banking industry has myopia, and only sees co-operation for mutual enhanced survival in terms of their own little corner of the world. Religion, politics, the media all present the world as an Us and Them (us here and them over there), so this myopia is inevitable.
BTW, if you ever find a sustainable way of coming to BC Mark, you're welcome to stay in this vegetarian home. Let me know and I'll include my email address for you, Sadly, I gave up flying 5 years ago, so I'll never see lovely Bristol and surrounding countryside again.................
tate comments ...
interesting...I was familiar w/the 1st story and agree...sometimes solutions look us in the eye and yet...we wait?!
As for the 2nd story, I'm still thinking!
Shaina comments ...
Trust in life to provide you with what you need, your words and believe, this is what has led you up to this point. The helicopters that are circling around are driven on fuel anyway.... I have great admiration for all you have accomplished so far and would not want you to have to deal with the frustrations of anything that is related to money, (don't do it, please!) Humble I, recommend option 3. Of course with all respect to the choice you will ultimately take. Best regards
Jimdubh comments ...
Hi Mark, I work for a community radio station in Donegal and would be really interested in doing an interview with you about your year-long experience of living without money and ideals in general. I don't have an email address or phone no for you but if you contact me at jimdubh@gmail.com I will follow up.
Regards,
Jim
des troy comments ...
To the Brazilian lady, do you want payment for your company or will a reciprocal arrangement suffice?
Payment equals prostitution, reciprocity equals love. Who would have thought your comment would provide the answer?
jason palmer comments ...
you have interesting ideas, perhaps you could contact Rick Lewis at philosophy now magazine and write an article for a future publication ?
tell him I sent you
Darren Chandler comments ...
Hi Mark. Have to say well done for 'being the change you want to see'.
I interpreted that the 11th round would come out of their own "hides". That is perhaps a bit of a dark interpretation, but it makes sense to me.
I am curious to know if you have ever participated in LETS systems, and if you think they are a valid alternative?
I agree that our economy is based on usury. A zero-interest system is the only sane, sustainable way forward.
Jord comments ...
I think using the money to buy some land for your community would be a mistake. I certainly understand your dilemma, the money would give an amazing boost to your plans/project. But, finding some land for free, donated or whatever, would give the community a solid foundation to build on and would be more consistent with your message, or at least how I perceive it. As you said yourself, in a moneyless world everything takes much more time, it may take a while to find your land, but when you do, I think it will hold more significance.
Meera comments ...
Oh yeah, I agree with Jord.....if you buy the land, it will be ironical to say that we could overthrow the money-based system. Why don't the present freeconomists in your locality (or wherever you want the community to be) provide the land and themselves be the first members of the real life community? I think that makes much more sense to me than BUYing the land for a FREEconomy community!
Caraline comments ...
I'm with what Tarsila says about knowing from your stomach or intuition! Theres a wisdom and a magic in winging it, is there not?
I believe Mark will need to believe deeply that he can recieve the land he wants by donation or other surprising event for the sychronicity of it to happen. It does kind of sadly thwart the freeconomy thing to buy the land. It wouldn't be an issue if you weren't selling the book. I know, Mark, that you want the message to reach as many people as possible.. but the publicity is going very well without it .. not to be controversial at this late stage, but how do you justify selling the book? I was wondering lately, why is not to be published on the website? It nearly is a similar logic to take the money as to charge it to access your ideas, is it? Im not saying I believe that to be the case, I'd just like to hear your logic.
In Chile they say newen! and theres no direct translation, it means 'power to you!'' Go forth!' that kind of thing.
so newen Mark! keep doing what you do best.
embers comments ...
Western society is not entirely riddled with crime and full of depression and mental illness. A lot of us are fundamentally decent people and don't like the way we are seemingly trapped in a system which rapes the planet. Many of us simply struggle to survive whilst trying to keep our sense of humour, good nature and kindness alive. Those who play into the hands of the banking system by taking on enormous debt through greed for materialism deserve the consequences of that choice. Only by subscribing to the bank's tempting offers in their hoardes, do the public keep the game rolling. We all have the choice to opt out - to live with less, to share what we have and what we know and help each other out for free. Isn't that the foundation of freeconomy? So how about sharing your knowledge and advice about how you lived for free, but freely online, and help us to incorporate more sustainable habits into our lives without everyone having to up-sticks to a nice bit of land. You've created a place for the greater good of all. Messing up a lovely bit of land isn't, no matter how many anecdotes you use to justify it.
Oz comments ...
Mark,
Let me start by saying that I highly commend you for what you are doing. I have just heard of you this evening so please forgive me if I am missing a finer point or two. I live in a world that involves money as most do but I have always detested the “system” of money.
Let me explain. If I am not mistaken barter is an acceptable practice in how you are choosing to live your life. I understand that doing for others w/o compensation is a large part of what you are promoting as well but at times barter is necessary. When we barter we are exchanging our labor. If you knew how to grow corn but not rice and I knew how to grow rice and not corn, for us to have a balanced diet we would trade our production/labor. Now if it took me twice as many hours to grow and harvest a pound of rice than it took you to grow and harvest a pound of corn would it not be a fair to say a pound of rice was twice as valuable as a pound of corn? This is how “value” is determined in a free society as all peoples time should have equal value.
I think that we as humans will always need barter. It would be nice to believe in a world where everyone just gave of themselves for the good of others but every time there has been a societal experiment of any size it fails due to there always being some who learn to take advantage of the system by getting and not giving.
So if I am correct in the premise that barter is acceptable to you and it is money itself and the problems it creates in society that you are trying to eliminate it becomes important to define “money”. What is “money”? Many commodities have been used in the past as a medium of exchange or money, such as gold, silver, tobacco leaves, or my favorite example, Native American wampum. Why wampum? Because it is very clear there was an abundance of seashells for all to gather, it only became valuable after much labor was put into making it a certain size and shape with a hole drilled through it to strand pieces together. In the purest sense it was the labor only that was expended that made it money.
In today’s world I would have to say most consider “money” the paper that governments and central banks print that we use to purchase goods and pay bills. It has virtually no intrinsic value (other than perhaps as you use yesterdays newspaper), it takes almost zero material and labor compared to its decreed purchasing power (it takes the same for a $1 as a $100 bill) and it is only by government decree that it is accepted. If fancy printed paper was really of value everyone would be making pretty cards and trading it for cars, houses, and groceries. This same money always comes with a charge of interest (usury) from its originators and their servant banks that can never be fully repaid as in your cowhide example.
This is what traps a certain percentage of the population into failure and causes the rest to be forced into greed so as not to be one of those that fail and loose everything. Any money that exists purely by fiat with no intrinsic value, issued by a government or central bank under a monopoly, is for the taxing of the citizens. They also indirectly tax the people by printing more for their use without labor. This devalues the labor expended by the people by devaluing the money they have and transferring the reward of that labor to the government.
I think that it is this usury/interest and the forced acceptance of“money” w/o any real labor/value demanded by governments and banks that enslaves people and promotes greed that you are fighting against the most. It is this dishonest money that I myself abhor so greatly.
If you have read this far and agree that barter is needed at times, here is my final point, and how this may help you in your dilemma. If one wishes to exclude governmental control in free trade and not support the greed that comes from interest and taxing control of bank notes, barter is what is left. The value of items outside of a typical money system is determined by the amount of labor required to produce the raw materials and make an end product, whether that be a chair or a bushel of carrots.
The powers that be have long argued and fought to get the world to believe that gold and silver are not money. The reason for this is that once eliminated as a medium of exchange they were able to control commerce and issue money to themselves for NO LABOR and in the process charge an interest for citizens to have access to it, which of course can never be paid back in full. In today’s modern world gold and silver are not considered “money” but have been relegated to being barter goods or industrial metals. This is fine as they have always been and always will be a medium of exchange.
To produce gold or silver requires labor whether from mining or recovering from scrap. It matters not if you are digging to harvest potatoes or carrots or gold, they have value because of the labor required to produce them. The advantage to gold and silver is that they will not spoil if they are saved for too long. They do not earn or charge interest and people can trade them for other goods without tax or government control. In short they are honest products of labor.
You have spent your labor for promoting a lifestyle free of the moral hazards that come with modern money. You put labor into writing a book in order to spread your message. You are also wishing to trade that labor for land to move your ideas forward. Unless I am missing something, I see no conflict with you trading your labor required to produce your book for labor required by someone else’s hands to produce gold or silver. In addition this is not something you wish to hoard but instead you wish to share it in the form of land. Sadly you cannot escape the tax that must be paid on such land without it being confiscated by government. People are not truly allowed to own land anymore, the government allows you the allusion of ownership by letting you buy it, then pay annual taxes to them on it or they will take it back as their own.
What people can do is refuse to use their system of monetary control by not using their “money” which strips them of their ownership of you. Use of government fiat money binds you as a slave to them. I am sure that you can find land that would be suitable that you can trade gold and silver for even if it would be necessary to use an intermediate party for the transaction. You could also trade your metals to someone in exchange for them paying your land tax so you would not have to soil your hands with “money”. Unless you have some way of avoiding land tax you will have to find a way to trade something in exchange for someone else to pay them. It is no different than trading food you grow with your labor for the same thing.
I hope I have not wasted anyone’s time in reading this but it seems to me that the evils everyone is trying to avoid that relate to money are those generated by dishonest government and bank money. The trading of goods produced by labor is honest.
Oz comments ...
My apologies. When I pasted this into the dialogue box it ran all the paragraphs into one making it a hard read.
frantasia comments ...
Mark, I guess the eleventh round (for those who have it) will have been got by exchanging chickens, a pig or a skill with one or more people who have rounds. That's the way it works in life as far as I know.
Regarding your book, I take it you mean to sell it - therefore don't you think you're already back in the money system - if you make a good amount on it (and I hope you do), and if you use that to buy land (and good wishes if you do), will that land not have been bought by the money paid by others (the eleventh round?).
Equally, your writings in the Guardian which are widely read and much appreciated, though you may be writing for free, only those who buy the paper can access them - or, someone must buy the paper in order for the pieces to be read by the buyer or others.
I wish you well in what you're doing, however I don't think you're fully outside the money system.
I'd value your comments please. Good wishes.
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ frantasia - the eleventh round can't from exchange, it relies on others losing some or all of their rounds, for the others to have more than their original shares. Also, I don't agree by writing a book I am already in the money world. If I made a table for a friend, and a week later my friend sold it, would that also mean I was in the money world. I can only look after my own relationships, not the relationships of everyone in the world. thanks. @ Des Troy - a very insightful remark, thank you. @ embers - I already share my knowledge on how to live more sustainably each week for free through this blog! And this tool itself allows others to live more sustainably. And your quote "Messing up a lovely bit of land isn't (for the greater good of all)" is a bit odd - why do you think I would mess up a piece of land! And what it will do is to provide a model than others can learn something from if they so wish. I think that is probably the most beneficial thing any one of us can do - provide solutions! @ Caraline and all else who have said why don't I publish online? Simply - because no one reads online books - how many have you ever read? Publishers are very skilled at getting books to the people who want them and so I have decided to go with their expertise. It is fine writing a book and publishing it on the net but very few people would actually read it!
Guriben comments ...
Hi Mark,
I have to disagree with you on the "nobody reads books online"
http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2005/07/17/dont-post-clickable-links-reading-books-online/
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/tag/books/
LOTS of people read online....me included.
:-)
And as I have said before, Cory Doctorow actually gets better (real) book sales because he also publishes them online....for free.
Ben
Joan comments ...
I read Mary Croft's book online for free and it changed my life. Not only because of the content but because it was free. My friends took it up like wildfire as well. Unless a study is done, I don't think we can ever know how many people read e-books. My guess is that with laptops and Kindle-type devices more and more people do.
Anyway the title was: HOW I CLOBBERED EVERY BUREAUCRATIC
CASH-CONFISCATORY AGENCY KNOWN TO MAN
... a Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are
Don't read it if you want to sleep well for the next month.
Ytrish comments ...
vic's point that " the system was invented because some let it happen" -
In the Eleventh Round story, the little leather rounds were made from one of the community's own cowhides in front of their own eyes. What the man had which the people didn't have was the stamp. And an idea which hadn't occurred to them perhaps because their system worked well enough! But still, he took them in and created a powerful illusion !
So anyway, to progress for a minute down the round token road the people could instantly have decided to make their own with their own stamp which would have been just as valid, or invalid ! It was after all fashioned from their own cowhide !
And in making and using them they may well have decided that tokens were not the way to go when they saw the effect such a system was having on their society.
The main point though is that they would have taken responsibility again rather than hand in over to that man in the hat !
So as I see it Mark has is taken back his responsibility (from the man in the hat) in the way that he sees best.
And, (vic's again) we "need to change the belief system and understand where the real growth lies" I think, anyway, this is an important one and brings us back to back to Being the Change we (each) want to see.
The only true way to change our belief system is from a different understanding which comes from within the self. Thus being the change ...
Thus we no longer need to hand responsibilty for any aspect of our lives to anyone else ! .
And one thing which comes across from Mark' s blogs is that unconditional love is the new currency ... !
I found a film called "1 Giant Leap " which everyone else has probably seen ages ago.
I"d recommend it to anyone who's not seen it, it's about people being themselves. Great music !
In it a quote from Martin Luther King :
"We must learn to live together as brothers or we perish together as fools" - well I'd put "can" instead of "must" since it's the individual's choice.
(I'm sure some of this is basic to most people on here ....)
Ytrish comments ...
And I'm also sure there are some typo errors in my comment ! (I can see them)
Read better when it had paragraphs !
Eric Scott comments ...
A system in which 2% hold 90% of the wealth, one can see only a few benefit from the labour of many. The promotion of small business and a rethink corporatism is need. If people started creating keyhole gardens... providing fresh fruit and veg for ones family and community would eradicate starvation within a short space of time, not to mention giving the body the right nutrition. Democratic governments who are elected by the people to act as servants of the people, need to construct policies which are inline with the general consensus of the the population. Lobbyists are merely bribers of the government and need to be outlawed.
We must put pressure on government using peaceful means to exact true change.
jason palmer comments ...
John Ruskin was right, the industrial revolition was a bad idea !
jason palmer comments ...
"The Crown Of Wild Olive" by john ruskin is an interesting book, he preaches against greed :)
Mark Boyle comments ...
The paragraphs have been sorted out so they all read well again!
@ ytrish - great comment, I suppose that is what local currency is about. I would like to see us beginning evolve out of currency completely, which is the ethos Freeconomy is based on.
Ytrish comments ...
Thanks Mark very much for kindness in taking the time with the paragraphs ! :-)
Great website !
Russo comments ...
loved the story explaining about money use.
One thing to bare in mind though, is that the central banks have the ability to stamp out their own disks at any time to lend to governments (and so us) at interest. In effect plucking cash from thin air. And the scarey thing is these central banks are privately owned!!!
Ytrish comments ...
PS ...I meant that unconditional love is the basis for a currency free society ...
jason palmer comments ...
Mark,
If we all move towards a society without money then how will the state collect taxes to fund foreign wars ?
The Amish seem rather happy, I wonder if they have special rules regarding the handling of money within the community ?
Ant comments ...
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. “ Thoreau.
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Hi Mark
If you’re going to make money from the book, then why don’t you give the money away to a worthy cause? Is buying a plot of land in order to set up a commune more worthy than donating to MSF, Save The Children, Greenpeace, Amnesty, Oxfam etc? I don’t think so. Having no impact versus having a positive impact.
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This would be something that most of us (me included) would not be able to do because of our attachment to possessions, property, money. But could you?
Mark Boyle comments ...
@ Ant - Oxfam, Greenpeace et al are great organisations staffed by amazing people, but they are also just fire-fighting symptoms, cleaning up the mess the rest of us make.
I want to build a model of living that can be replicated so that we, as humans, stop making such a mess that these great organisations have to then work hard to clean up.
You say 'no impact versus positive impact'...how on earth do you conclude it will have no impact when you haven't even heard the plan. I would argue that it has the potential for so much more impact.
Fire-fighting symptoms is necessary and fantastic, but we need to start building models, solutions to the old problems. Einstein once said you cannot solve a problem using the same thinking that created that problem in the first place.
@ guriben and Joan - OK I retract that, some people read online books but it isn't even a fraction. I am not arguing against them, though I am not sure I want a world where we read everything online. It hardly encourages going off to the woods for some peace and quiet with a book. Not sure if I want my book read in front of a screen for hours on end. And if they print it off, they are still using paper, and more unless they know how to print double sided. Its a complex argument and I don't know where I stand on it.
@ jason palmer - I agree, Ruskin was a great man.
Susan Mason comments ...
I really love both of these stories. They illustrate very well, some of the problems with the monetary system.
Ant comments ...
Hi Mark
Sorry-when I wrote that you are ‘no impact’ this shouldn’t be taken as an insult. As you know most of us have negative impact on the earth. If everyone lived as I do, we would probably need resources from 4 planets to sustain us. You, on the other hand have had no impact during the last year. If you can influence many people to have no impact (which indeed you have done already) it would be incredible.
Not sure about your view of NGOs only being fire-fighters. Especially given the emphasis many charities have on sustainable development, provisions of health care, education, protecting and planting forests, advocacy! etc.
Isn't it better to protect a tree than to cut a tree.. and better still to plant another?.
I hope you are successful with your plan and good luck with your planting.
Tom Collier comments ...
I came across a different version of this parable; www.lookingglassnews.org/viewcommentary.php?storyid=147/
I found this version although longer a little clearer x
kib comments ...
If you ever change your blog name, I think you ought to call it "A Boyle On The Arse Of Consumerism". You rock, Mark!
Sandie Roach comments ...
Don't let any of those Guardian readers, who gave you a hard time, put you off from writing the book. I can't wait to read it. Loved the article in Permaculture Magazine.
I'm trying to incorporate a bit of your philosophy into everyday life.
Who knows, in twenty years time, perhaps another solution may be required. However, there is currently so much 'stuff' to go around, in our western world, that living without money is quite feasible and acceptable, if one is prepared to put in the extra effort required to attain the rewards: personal freedom, extra time and the fun of a challenge.
Great experiment - hope it's going well.
karen chard comments ...
nice, i like that.
Mark do you have a particular country,county or town, village for you dream?
LJ comments ...
many times i've wondered why that first dollar was accepted. what was it worth?
The ZaZ comments ...
This story should be on the front page of every newspaper every day until it sinks in.
MickGJ comments ...
By participating in a money economy the people of the village were able to make an immediate improvement in the efficiency of their system of exchange. Not only that but they were also able to store surpluses for future use in a non-perishable form, so that when "disaster struck" they were able to purchase food and avoid famine, This is precisely what barter economies are incapabable of doing and why so many people have died in famines down the years. There's normally more than enough food in any particular country at any one time, but no-one has any of the "evil" cash they need to to buy it.
The 11th round story is a classic example of fallacious zero sum thinking: no-one has to "go bankrupt" for me to pay the interest on my mortgage.
You might as well argue that people are "going bankrupt" somewhere because of all the "evil" cash that is flooding in to Haiti.
Of course, we could all go there directly and offer our "skills" but how any of us can do anything that's any use in an earthquake? Far better to raid the piggy bank--if, that is, you have one.
